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Ideas, ideas, IDEAS!


JulioTheDanks

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NEW WEAPONS:

Crossbow: higher damage - slower firing rate.

Dagger: if people come at me with a dagger in this game why cant I have one? lower damage - faster attack speed - user takes small amounts of damage when parrying blows - faster movement.

Bring back gas arrows and fire arrows and landmines.

3RD PERSON MODE: not a priority I understand but none the less the feature was much welcomed in DS.

DIFFERENT OUTFITS:

Armored: higher damage resistance - slower and less stealthy.

Black hood: no damage resistance - stealth bonuses

Disguises? I wonder how it would play out if you could take the clothing of knocked out opponents?

THROWING HEAVY OBJECTS AT ENEMIES INJURES THEM: you have the physics engine for it. Why not?

ABILITY TO RE LOCK DOORS: You can relight torches. Why not re lock doors to prevent AI from investigating sounds or cutting you off on predetermined escape routes?

FASTER MOVEMENT WHEN WEAPONS AREN'T EQUIPPED: Makes sense to me. When the AI gets better it would nice to have that edge so that players can outrun AI rather then run at their pace. If I'm going to sheath my weapon and run rather then stand and fight I feel like there should be some sort of plus. Otherwise why not stand your ground with a single guard?

THE ABILITY TO CHOP OPEN DOORS: This will be a check and balance for when the player re locks doors. Allows the player to buy time while he makes a escape and it just sounds like a fun feature to have.

TRANSFERABLE LOOT: Whats the point of stealing things if I cant spend my ill gotten gains on equipment for the next mission.

FIX THE SETTINGS MENU: I had a lot of trouble putting my own controls in at the control menu. It would often assign buttons that I didn't even want in the calculation with out my consent. Also changing the settings in a mission does not transfer over to other missions. The mod needs to start gearing to a more universal feel rather then fan mission to fan mission.

AI ON THE FIRST FLOOR SHOULD NOT REACT TO MY MOVEMENT ON THE SECOND FLOOR: How does a guard differentiate from my footsteps to that of another guard when hes on the first and I'm on the second? On levels with multiple floors not only do I have to worry about the guards on the second floor from hearing me but the ones on the first as well. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me and can be frustrating having death squads come up the stairs to find me.

GUARDS SHOULD REACT TO TORCHES BEING PUT OUT BLATANTLY IN FRONT OF THEM: Just saying. Makes sense. Rather then have a guard comment on how dark it is why doesn't he draw his blade and investigate? I thought this world was perilous and fraught with danger.

GUARDS SHOULD REACT TO DOORS BEING LEFT OPEN: Their job is security. Doors being left open for no reason should instigate some sort of reaction from the guards.

SOME GUARDS SHOULD HAVE RANGED WEAPONS: I have a bow. Why not them?

LOOT AND INTRACTABLE ITEMS SUCH AS LEVERS SHOULD GLOW OR TWINKLE: I had a hard time sometimes noticing switches or loot. Give them something to stand out.

ELEVATOR AND DOOR MOVEMENT SHOULD OVERRIDE PLAYER MOVEMENT AND AI MOVEMENT: Rather then a door stop opening because I'm in the way have it push me open. Instead of having a guard or me jam a elevators movement have it crush me or the guard. Allows for smoother game play and makes more sense from a physics standpoint.

HAVE THE OPTION FOR MISSION CONCLUSIONS: So what happened after I got out of that mansion after stealing that stuff? Did I go home and eat waffles? Did the guy I tried to sell my loot to screw me over? Mission complete is rather unrewarding. Why not give me some more story line?

WHY DO GUARDS ON PUBLIC STREETS ATTACK ME ON SIGHT?: Is there a curfew? Am I wanted? Whats the deal? It would be nice to have AI be able to differentiate when I'm doing something illegal and when I'm not rather then drawing their blades on first sight of me.

UNDEAD SHOULD BEAT DOWN DOORS RATHER THEN OPEN THEM LIKE THEY ARE PEOPLE: Its rather annoying to close a door on a zombie and feel secure only to watch him open the door like hes a human being capable of rational thought. Why doesn't he just throw a rock at me too while hes at it?

BRING BACK OIL FLASKS: Having a temporary impassible wall of fire is useful.

This is only the tip of the iceberg and I'm sure I don't understand a lot of the programming that goes into ideas like these so I understand if many are far fetched. I just thought all these ideas would make the game play something MORE then its predecessors. Please give me feedback!!!

The only limits your imagination has are the ones you set.

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Some interesting ideas in there, but yeah, you haven't experienced some of the current features yet. Guards do have ranged attacks. For one, there are archers, and standard swordsmen can throw rocks at the player if he is out of reach. Gas arrows, fire arrows, and mines are all there. My personal fav are the gas arrows. There's nothing like gassing a crowd of guards all at once.

 

Third-person and lint loot have been discussed in the past, and I got the general impression that the team didn't care for these features. A lot of the classic Thief players don't. I don't want this to turn into a debate, I'll just say that the Doom 3 engine already supports third-person views with a rotate-able camera, and someone could probably do some fancy scripting to get a reasonable third-person mode working. The main problem there is a lack of upper animations for the player character.

 

As far as loot goes, I agree it would be cool to get to use your loot collected from one mission on another, but this would probably upset some mappers if they wanted you to have a set amount of tools to complete the mission. Still it would be cool to have a lasting accomplishment for completing missions.

 

As for the footsteps, its a video game thing. All opponents in stealth games have the magical ability to discern the player from fellow guards via sound queues. I don't know of any reasonable way to fix this without breaking a game (making it too easy).

--- War does not decide who is right, war decides who is left.

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I wonder if we can customize thief characters (Corbin and Farrell) mentioned in TDM wiki universe chapter.

You can make it even by shop, by "hire sword" (or bow, or climbing gloves) of different characters. Each of them will have another speed, bow speed/strength, cloaking ability, lockpick speed, strength or even equipment limit connected with air bar (on HUD), with will show character fatigue.

 

Due to rig attachment points on models we could let to player choose where he want to carry any part of equipment, and different placement will affect draw speed, visibility and movement noise (or even speed).

 

Is it possible to make a two colour clothes (left one darker and with green leaf texture, right one brighter and in red brick texture), so due to background wall colour player could show to guard more accurate camo? Of course harlequin look don't helps in way to "work", so it can be removable/ two sided cloak.

S2wtMNl.gif

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Third-person and lint loot have been discussed in the past, and I got the general impression that the team didn't care for these features.

I, for one, wholeheartedly agree that lint should qualify as loot. -_-

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Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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TDM is not a RPG, so we've steered away from RPG elements in our design philosophy. While you are essentially "playing a character" for the sake of the story, we want the player to feel like THEY are the thief. It is the player's skill, not the character's, that should matter as you play the game. That's why you won't find things like bow upgrades or "gaining experience" in TDM.

 

We also are keenly aware of the problem of "feature creep" that often plagues games or mods that have been around for a while. It's not a hard and fast rule, but in general, there is no point in having two different tools/weapons that accomplish the same thing, which is why we've never bothered with things like poison darts, garrottes or daggers for the player.

 

That said, mappers can always implement creative ideas like this if they wish...it would be fun to play a mission with an assassin who had a different set of tools, or who could dress up and impersonate guards, for example.

 

Also changing the settings in a mission does not transfer over to other missions.

 

You have a bug if this is happening, as settings should always stay consistent.

 

I think you need to play a few more missions. Many of the improvements you've requested already exist...

 

+1

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"LOOT AND INTRACTABLE ITEMS SUCH AS LEVERS SHOULD GLOW OR TWINKLE"

 

Methinks Bioshock has spoilt you. =-P

"No proposition Euclid wrote,

No formulae the text-books know,

Will turn the bullet from your coat,

Or ward the tulwar's downward blow

Strike hard who cares—shoot straight who can—

The odds are on the cheaper man."

 

From 'Arithmetic on the Frontier' by Rudyard Kipling

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A lot of those ideas make it sound like you're a little more fond of Deadly Shadows than many of us on the team. :) Dark Mod was made for a few reasons. 1. It looked like we weren't going to get a Deadly Shadows editor. 2. There was a lot of dissatisfaction with TDS. 3. Even when the TDS editor was released, we learned that it wasn't going to be as flexible as we had hoped. With that in mind, The Dark Mod is inspired by Thief 1 and 2. Loot glimmer and Third person are definitely out.

 

While I personally appreciate that we're going to have more new forum members due to the recent publicity, hopefully they won't be too discouraged when the team isn't necessarily warm to a lot of the 'new' ideas. We've been in development for 7 years now so I think the majority of our efforts will be going into fixing bugs and refining the current mod foundation.

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With footsteps, that is really due to a map being properly portalled.

 

Sound travels through portals, if a map hasn't been portalled between floor 1 and 2, then sound will go straight through the floor instead of the 'airspace'.

So a guard directly below you will sound like he's 3 feet away. With proper portals he won't be heard (and vice versa)

 

I think Outpost may have had some issues with this. But that was an earlier mission, authors are starting to get a better understanding of how everything works these days.

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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With footsteps, that is really due to a map being properly portalled.

 

Sound travels through portals, if a map hasn't been portalled between floor 1 and 2, then sound will go straight through the floor instead of the 'airspace'.

So a guard directly below you will sound like he's 3 feet away. With proper portals he won't be heard (and vice versa)

 

Back when I was working with Glenham, I observed that sound can leak through properly portalled, but too thin walls. Thickening the walls fixed the issue. Just to point out it may be due to other than poor portalling, too.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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Point by point response here:

 

NEW WEAPONS:

Crossbow: higher damage - slower firing rate.

Dagger: if people come at me with a dagger in this game why cant I have one? lower damage - faster attack speed - user takes small amounts of damage when parrying blows - faster movement.

Bring back gas arrows and fire arrows and landmines.

 

Crossbow - I figure a mapper may be more likely to provide slight weapon mods like this. For example a bow sight mod was created not too long ago. I'm not very familiar with weapons history but wasn't the crossbow a significant development that brought both "higher damage" and faster reloading speed? In fact if anything the rate at which you can shoot arrows with bows in Thief/TDM/TES/etc. is unrealistically fast, probably won't see more than 6 a minute in real life...

 

Dagger - Isn't this the default pointy weapon? Oh, it's actually a short sword. This is a fair compromise bridging Thief and TDS... you get the sneakiness and speed of a dagger and the slashing utility of the sword. Adding a dagger probably wouldn't be too hard but it could require a new animation. I know CoSaS Mission X used a dagger with a thrusting action and paralytic poison ability. I'm more anxious to see slashable curtains, paintings, hedges, and cobwebs see greater use.

 

Gas arrows have been around forever, as with fire arrows. So have landmines, but the latest versions of TDM have fixed their behavior so that they are now useful!

 

3RD PERSON MODE: not a priority I understand but none the less the feature was much welcomed in DS.

 

A sizeable majority of the community doesn't want to see this. Implementation in DS was clunky and ugly. FP is more realistic. You could possibly make a case for some kind of body awareness, but even that is mainly a distraction in terms of gameplay and you can find a more in-depth and much older debate if you search: http://forums.thedar...773-small-idea/

 

Note that you can sort of see yourself in some "mirrors," although these are used sparingly as they can hurt framerate (?).

 

(Here's my plug for helping you search the forum and other stuff: http://t4lg.anodal.org/ )

 

DIFFERENT OUTFITS:

Armored: higher damage resistance - slower and less stealthy.

Black hood: no damage resistance - stealth bonuses

Disguises? I wonder how it would play out if you could take the clothing of knocked out opponents?

 

Rather than a mod feature this kind of thing should be introduced by mappers if at all. There are a few Thief OMs and FMs where you start out disguised or something. Similarly, TDM uses "teams" and other features that allow the mapper to create guards that don't try to kill you on sight for realism/city strolling purposes. This could be used to simulate a "disguise". I could see some kind of temporary damage resistance or shield being used to bypass certain locations (lava/arrow/boulder puzzles?) or as an in-mission player choice, but the default mindset is that you want to avoid direct combat and damage, and if you do damage yourself by falling or getting shot or fighting some spiders, you use your limited supply of potions to help you out. There are healing and breath potions, not sure about slowfall.

 

THROWING HEAVY OBJECTS AT ENEMIES INJURES THEM: you have the physics engine for it. Why not?

 

It seems like a good idea. Mappers can certainly use scripting to simulate traps and other physics flourishes

(see: St. Lucia)

, but as a TDM feature this is lacking. Probably the biggest issue would be a compatibility/exploit one... killing a guard or two could make things easier, sure, but killing the wrong person with this feature could break existing missions or cause AI to accidentally kill themselves with crates or some shit.

 

Actually I've heard talk about rogue high velocity objects killing AI, including buggy doors, so I think this is already implemented in some unseen way, just not ordinarily exploitable. This thread got long pretty fast, maybe someone else answered this point in greater detail.

 

ABILITY TO RE LOCK DOORS: You can relight torches. Why not re lock doors to prevent AI from investigating sounds or cutting you off on predetermined escape routes?

 

(U)se the key on the door, if you have one.

 

FASTER MOVEMENT WHEN WEAPONS AREN'T EQUIPPED: Makes sense to me. When the AI gets better it would nice to have that edge so that players can outrun AI rather then run at their pace. If I'm going to sheath my weapon and run rather then stand and fight I feel like there should be some sort of plus. Otherwise why not stand your ground with a single guard?

 

Players aren't really supposed to have preternatural running capabilties. This is one way in which T1/T2 was unbalanced, you could run and skip away from enemies if you got caught, wait around or go somewhere else and continue on your merry way. TDM encourages sneakery, even if it's not on the "ghosting" level. However movement is already faster when weapons aren't equipped.

 

THE ABILITY TO CHOP OPEN DOORS: This will be a check and balance for when the player re locks doors. Allows the player to buy time while he makes a escape and it just sounds like a fun feature to have.

 

Finding breakable doors (whatever that exactly entails) in Thief OMs/FMs was a hit or miss process. Mappers could include this kind of thing with scripting, and slashables or tattered doors shouldn't be impossible. Maybe this is a good point to discuss further.

 

TRANSFERABLE LOOT: Whats the point of stealing things if I cant spend my ill gotten gains on equipment for the next mission.

 

Campaign support was added a couple of versions ago, although it hasn't been used too much. Not only is this possible though, but I've been told that a wide range of variables can be passed from mission to mission. With some smart mapping, a well built campaign could have the qualities of a "choose your own adventure". It would be a lot of work though. In short, it exists.

Edited by jaxa
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With portals, they also currently have no effect on sound if they're open. So if you're 4 floors up in a building, and there is a hole in each floor that you can look straight down and see the bottom floor through, any AI on the bottom floor will sound much louder than it should. The portal should decrease sound whether it's open or not, as they do in the Dark Engine, unfortunately we didn't have enough engine access to make that happen...until now. :)

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It's a couple of things could be done, I think.

 

One of the EAX settings deals with sound falloff within a leaf (which you can change with the air pressure & reverb etc), but not everyone has EAX, and I'm not sure it's additive across leafs. We might take the EAX data and factor it into a volume falloff in the sound engine itself, since it is a gameplay thing. But I wonder how it'd work when you do turn on EAX on top of that...

 

Then there's sound going through marked portals. One thing we have to do is fix the sound-attenuation spawnarg on location-markers so it's world->player; then you can add a default natural falloff that will be more additive (although they'll be different distances so it might not work consistently every time unless you factor that sort of thing in). But in any event, also when you have things like windows, we need that spawnarg fixed so a mapper can keep the sound from leaking through them.

 

Then there's the possibility of more ambitious overhaul like that "real sound" mod someone made in HL2, where it actually computed sound flow based on the geometry (IIRC it was realtime, but there might also be a "baked" process you do during dmap), so it wasn't going through walls but going around them properly, etc., or if not a full version at least a simplified version that does a better job than what we have now. Or something like what the Dark Engine had, where sound flow was directed through the "rooms" & connections, which worked a little better keeping sound going through walls, but it did it at the cost of all the "rooms" being rectangles, so maybe it's not the best example. But I just mean a way for the mapper to better direct the flow of sound directly ... maybe sound portals?

 

I'm just thinking aloud. I guess my point is, it raises a lot to talk about and we have to specify which specific process or situation we're talking about when we talk about sound improvements.... Although for the wiki of course it's probably okay to cover it all under an umbrella label like "Improve the falloff & flow of sound in the game world."

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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Part 2:

 

FIX THE SETTINGS MENU: I had a lot of trouble putting my own controls in at the control menu. It would often assign buttons that I didn't even want in the calculation with out my consent. Also changing the settings in a mission does not transfer over to other missions. The mod needs to start gearing to a more universal feel rather then fan mission to fan mission.

 

Is it a bug or a misunderstanding? More specifics are needed.

 

AI ON THE FIRST FLOOR SHOULD NOT REACT TO MY MOVEMENT ON THE SECOND FLOOR: How does a guard differentiate from my footsteps to that of another guard when hes on the first and I'm on the second? On levels with multiple floors not only do I have to worry about the guards on the second floor from hearing me but the ones on the first as well. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me and can be frustrating having death squads come up the stairs to find me.

 

I don't know what mission you're referring to, it could have been bad sound portalling or whatever, but I will note that under certain conditions in real life it's easy to hear noise that's 1-2 floors above you. And guards have the capability to run around alerting other guards. I'd also expect alarms to wake up multiple levels of security, where applicable.

 

GUARDS SHOULD REACT TO TORCHES BEING PUT OUT BLATANTLY IN FRONT OF THEM: Just saying. Makes sense. Rather then have a guard comment on how dark it is why doesn't he draw his blade and investigate? I thought this world was perilous and fraught with danger.

 

This is true, this is in, and this was improved upon in recent versions I believe. The proximity of the guard to the water arrow splash currently makes a difference I think, and mappers can set lights as essential (relightable) and can vary the suspicion levels of guards to match their needs.

 

GUARDS SHOULD REACT TO DOORS BEING LEFT OPEN: Their job is security. Doors being left open for no reason should instigate some sort of reaction from the guards.

 

I think this has been improved upon recently. It's also partially up to the mapper.

 

SOME GUARDS SHOULD HAVE RANGED WEAPONS: I have a bow. Why not them?

 

Play more missions, they do. Guards without bows throw rocks at you, as a counter against their inability to climb ladders and other inaccessible areas.

 

LOOT AND INTRACTABLE ITEMS SUCH AS LEVERS SHOULD GLOW OR TWINKLE: I had a hard time sometimes noticing switches or loot. Give them something to stand out.

 

A lot of mappers have reduced the amount of junk items that can be frobbed in order to make loot stand out. Unmovable junk items are considered by some to be a bad thing, so although this is probably an unpopular idea, you may have something here.

 

ELEVATOR AND DOOR MOVEMENT SHOULD OVERRIDE PLAYER MOVEMENT AND AI MOVEMENT: Rather then a door stop opening because I'm in the way have it push me open. Instead of having a guard or me jam a elevators movement have it crush me or the guard. Allows for smoother game play and makes more sense from a physics standpoint.

 

I'm mixed on this. Normal doors should stay as is... doors don't have too much force and they aren't flying open as it is. Elevators should crush or damage players and AI, but it's been a few versions since I've tried it myself.

 

HAVE THE OPTION FOR MISSION CONCLUSIONS: So what happened after I got out of that mansion after stealing that stuff? Did I go home and eat waffles? Did the guy I tried to sell my loot to screw me over? Mission complete is rather unrewarding. Why not give me some more story line?

 

This is obviously up to mappers, but I'm sure the feature exists. Not many mappers make their own videos anyway, but do use the little "slideshow" feature for the beginning. Conclusions could be interesting for those creating more story-oriented missions and campaigns, which are again not the main focus for most mappers.

 

WHY DO GUARDS ON PUBLIC STREETS ATTACK ME ON SIGHT?: Is there a curfew? Am I wanted? Whats the deal? It would be nice to have AI be able to differentiate when I'm doing something illegal and when I'm not rather then drawing their blades on first sight of me.

 

Blame the mapper. There could very well be a curfew, and you could be wanted (circumstances of the player character are "determined" by the mapper), but as I've said it's entirely possible to set certain guards and street people as neutral to the player. Now that there are more missions with non-hostiles you should pay close attention to the briefing information and objectives, which, if well-written, should tell you all you need to know to avoid being attacked on sight. By default you should sneak around though.

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Part 3:

 

UNDEAD SHOULD BEAT DOWN DOORS RATHER THEN OPEN THEM LIKE THEY ARE PEOPLE: Its rather annoying to close a door on a zombie and feel secure only to watch him open the door like hes a human being capable of rational thought. Why doesn't he just throw a rock at me too while hes at it?

 

Well the skeleton guys (revenants?) are probably considered semi-intelligent, but as for the zombies you are probably correct and this could probably be an easy fix (they bang on non-locked doors 2-3 times with a simple animation and the door swings open on the last try). I want to go back to an undead mission to see how this looks myself.

 

BRING BACK OIL FLASKS: Having a temporary impassible wall of fire is useful.

 

Naaah. It was one of the sillier DS exclusive features. Maybe a mapper will want to do it, seems like a lot of work though.

 

Note again that mappers have a lot of leeway with crafting their little "universe". See Dram's airship demo video as an example. Shadowhide also made a WIP train. Rather than saying that the burden for new features is on the mapper, I would say that the mapper has a lot of freedom to explore their creative vision if they put in the work. New weapons and items do get added, 1.07 added the vine arrow.

 

This is only the tip of the iceberg and I'm sure I don't understand a lot of the programming that goes into ideas like these so I understand if many are far fetched. I just thought all these ideas would make the game play something MORE then its predecessors. Please give me feedback!!!

 

I hope this feedback helped you out; I don't want to see you dismissed outright but obviously you need to play a bit more (there are archers!) and you should recognize that the TDM team has discussed all of these issues in depth for up to years before 1.0 was released.

 

To the mods: y no 20 quotes lul

Edited by jaxa
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This is obviously up to mappers, but I'm sure the feature exists.

 

There are two different ways to do this: an in-game cutscene (which grayman used in Above the City) and a new end-movie option greebo added in 1.06 (which I used in A Score to Settle).

 

but as for the zombies you are probably correct and this could probably be an easy fix (they bang on non-locked doors 2-3 times with a simple animation and the door swings open on the last try)

 

I think zombies are set to not open doors by default, but mappers can override it. Having zombies bang on doors to open them might be a possibility. I'll add it to the tracker.

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