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Ideas, ideas, IDEAS!


JulioTheDanks

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I looked into it a bit, but it's not as easy to do as I thought. The door code sets the animation and the amount of time that passes before the door opens, so it's not just a matter of creating a new animation.

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I've played several missions, but obviously not enough and as I was typing that last night I realized that many of my criticisms would be out of ignorance. Although the feedback was faster then me playing through all the missions to figure out what was there and what wasn't. Keep in mind I downloaded every mission so the list is long to choose from.

I understand the team has preferences, but I'm trying to think of how this mod can appeal to a wider audience. People want features and freedom and get frustrated by limitations, no matter how trivial. That is the nature of american gamers today. The more features a game has. The less criticism can be made.

I'm not saying levers or loot should glow. This is is excessive. But DS at least at a tiny little twinkle that made it so at least I didn't completely overlook loot and intractable devices.

Several missions may have been designed poorly. I know for a fact I had a really hard time with several because of sound portal issues.

I will admit. I played DS extensively because it was the newer release. That's just what I do. And the game itself was not bad to be honest, but not as good as Thief Gold. Which is have gone through great lengths to keep it installed on a windows 7 platform. This is not as easy as it sounds due to compatibility issues. So I'm familiar with both games. But I'm going to go back and play Thief Gold some more to see what made that game so great. My mind is still stuck on more modern games. Bioshock does spoil you XD. But the game is great so does it matter?

Honestly I just want this game to have a more universal feel. With so many fan missions (many of them poorly made and inconsistent) I cant really get a good feel for the game.

I want the developer team to make their campaign. They know the game dynamics better then anyone and then I can make a fair analysis of the game once I've played their campaign from beginning to end.

Can somebody give me a list of recommended missions to play? I'm sure some more valid criticisms can be made once I've played the more popular missions out of the 40 or so.

Honestly any other criticisms I thought are just bugs that can be fixed and will be fixed. So I just started coming up with whatever came to mind. The thumbs up and thumbs down responses are helpful though. I can work with the teams preferences. Whats the teams overall idea for the finished product. Its hard to submit ideas without knowing what they want in the end...

The only limits your imagination has are the ones you set.

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Honestly I just want this game to have a more universal feel.

 

Well, stealth gaming is and always will be a niche market. Not everyone has the patience for that kind play. The benefit of being an amateur mod is that we don't have to worry about catering to the lowest common denominator, and can instead focus on what's good for our niche.

 

The more features a game has. The less criticism can be made.

 

I'd actually say it's closer to the opposite. :)

 

 

I want the developer team to make their campaign. They know the game dynamics better then anyone and then I can make a fair analysis of the game once I've played their campaign from beginning to end.

 

Making campaigns is not an easy task. Crucibles of Omens isn't really a "team" campaign, though it is being made by a number of skilled mappers (some of whom are developers). But it's not going to be finished any time soon.

 

Can somebody give me a list of recommended missions to play?

 

I've been suggesting that we compile a list of recommendations in order to answer questions like this. Just needs someone (preferably a non-mapper) to get the ball rolling. http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/13283-newcomer-impressions-of-tdm-missions/

 

It certainly can be difficult to judge the quality and appeal of TDM if you only play some of the less polished missions.

 

I would personally recommend Knighton's Manor, Mandrosola, Return to the City, Somewhere Above the City, or my own mission, A Score to Settle.

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Can somebody give me a list of recommended missions to play?

 

:)

There are about 50 fms so far. I played all of them. I suggest the way how many people started to play this mod. Start with Saint Lucia and don't forget to explore enviroment. You'll be rewarded. ;)

 

After that I advise Glenham Tower. Play this onr especially at night and alone in a big room where doors and windows are open. :ph34r:

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One thing that you might've missed because it's not in the mission downloader yet is the 3 mission mini campaign "No Honor Among Thieves" it's got a voice-over narration, video briefings, and many scripted AI events.

 

Added to that and Springheel's picks, I'd add "Trapped!", "Fiasco at Fauchard St", "Builder's Influence" and "Alberic's Curse".

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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I've played several missions, but obviously not enough and as I was typing that last night I realized that many of my criticisms would be out of ignorance. Although the feedback was faster then me playing through all the missions to figure out what was there and what wasn't. Keep in mind I downloaded every mission so the list is long to choose from.

 

A lot of your gameplay questions could have been addressed by our Wiki.

 

http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=The_Dark_Mod_Gameplay

 

I understand the team has preferences, but I'm trying to think of how this mod can appeal to a wider audience. People want features and freedom and get frustrated by limitations, no matter how trivial. That is the nature of american gamers today.

 

As an independent Mod, we have never felt the need to cater to nor appeal to a wider audience. TDM was inspired by Thief 1 and 2, and so created to appeal to Fans of those games, players like ourselves who enjoy a challenge and aren't fond of the direction modern gaming has taken.

 

Several missions may have been designed poorly. I know for a fact I had a really hard time with several because of sound portal issues.

 

I think some of the portaling issues may also be corrected now that we have access to the full Doom 3 source code. Our sound portals piggy back on top of the vis-portals. Unfortunately, this means they only reduce sound propagation when the portals are closed. We'll be able to fix that now so that sound will decrease properly whether the portal is open or not.

 

I will admit. I played DS extensively because it was the newer release. That's just what I do. And the game itself was not bad to be honest, but not as good as Thief Gold.

 

TDS is an entry in the series that we aimed to be least like. :)

 

Honestly I just want this game to have a more universal feel. With so many fan missions (many of them poorly made and inconsistent) I cant really get a good feel for the game.

 

Well, just like the classic Thief FM's...mileage is going to vary from FM author to FM author. That's just the nature of individual FM's being authored by different people...quality will slide. The campaign should give players the continuity they're looking for though.

 

Whats the teams overall idea for the finished product. Its hard to submit ideas without knowing what they want in the end...

 

As Spring and I said in the other thread, TDM is essentially finished....aside from bug fixes, tweaks and optimizations, this is the finished product....I wouldn't expect any major changes or additions at this point.

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Yes, there are many good missions, of the ones I played, I would probably single out Saint Lucia, Fiasco at Fauchard St (smaller ones), Heart of Lone Salvation and A Score to Settle (bigger ones) to get your started. I think you'll see much of what makes TDM so great in there, but there are many very good missions on offer.

Edited by RPGista
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Interesting. In my eyes the Mod does not seem complete. Seems like its still buggy and it has a lot more potential then what it is now. I thought you would want something more then what thief provided, but it seems it seems you guys wanted more of a modernized thief 2 rather then something more. Shame.

The only limits your imagination has are the ones you set.

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Interesting. In my eyes the Mod does not seem complete. Seems like its still buggy and it has a lot more potential then what it is now. I thought you would want something more then what thief provided, but it seems it seems you guys wanted more of a modernized thief 2 rather then something more. Shame.

shame on you

Tdm was inspired by t1/2,nobody wants thirdperson view or climbing gloves

By the way,you can do everything by yourself,or you want somebody to make your ideas real?

Proceed with caution!

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Interesting. In my eyes the Mod does not seem complete. Seems like its still buggy and it has a lot more potential then what it is now. I thought you would want something more then what thief provided, but it seems it seems you guys wanted more of a modernized thief 2 rather then something more. Shame.

 

We've said there are still bugs to fix as well as additional tweaking and optimizations. We couldn't achieve some things due to not having access to the D3 source code. I don't really feel what we set out to do is a shame, I don't think you've played enough fan missions to draw that conclusion. We were highly inspired by those first two games and considered them a good foundation to start with. I think the team has done an excellent job figuring out where the first two games would have logically evolved if LGS had developed the next game...and we've also placed our own stamp on it as well. :)

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Again, it seems to me you (and probably many others) are not really aware that the Dark Mod is in fact a creator's tool for developing Thief-like missions and realising your ideas of a steam punk stealth game environment, NOT the missions that are available right now. The story provided in the Wiki is merely an example, everyone is free to take what exists and create their own world, stories and plots (even breaking the limits of what exists, if you know how to create your own assets). A LOT of your wants could actually be achieved by a dedicated mapper (things like scripted events, new sounds and specific AI behaviours), and are not something that is lacking from the mod itself.

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Interesting. In my eyes the Mod does not seem complete. Seems like its still buggy and it has a lot more potential then what it is now. I thought you would want something more then what thief provided, but it seems it seems you guys wanted more of a modernized thief 2 rather then something more. Shame.
  • Powerful object-handling and the potential for physics-based puzzles: something more.
  • Realtime shadows and using them to support stealth-based gameplay: something more.
  • Swinging on ropes to gain momentum: something more.
  • Lanternbots, light-casting guardian machines that don't attack but support other AI: something more.
  • Mantling that feels like somebody agile climbing up on things: something more.
  • Vine arrows as a different rope arrow alternative: something more.
  • A telescope for reconaissance: something more.
  • A functional lantern (which BTW allows the finding of loot without glint): something more.
  • The potential for large yet highly detailed maps: something more.
  • An effective, user-friendly editor that's not as cranky as Dromed and not as downright crippled as T3ed: something more.
  • Lockpicking based on visual and sound cues: something more.
  • A built-in mission downloading application: something more.

Well, I guess there is no 3rd person mode or a crossbow, though. Shame about that.

Edited by Melan
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Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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Interesting. In my eyes the Mod does not seem complete. Seems like its still buggy

 

Perhaps you'd like to be more specific? Other than the menu settings issue, I haven't heard you mention anything that sounds like a bug.

 

and it has a lot more potential then what it is now.

 

Sure. Just in the last few days we've talked about new features that could be added, like AI recognizing fellow guards that have disappeared from their patrols. I added a new vocal set last week and I'm currently reviewing and improving all our item collision sounds. The mod will certainly continue to improve. But to use an analogy, the house may get some paint and new faucets, but it is already built and people are living in it.

 

I thought you would want something more then what thief provided, but it seems it seems you guys wanted more of a modernized thief 2 rather then something more. Shame.

 

A "modernized Thief 2" is exactly what we want, and I see no "shame" about it. But it just so happens we've also pushed stealth gaming further than any other game out there, commercial or otherwise, and I'm pretty damn proud of what we've accomplished.

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You see no shame in taking 7 years to duplicate a game using a different source code and graphics engine and then saying that you and your team have taken stealth gaming farther then anyone else?

I do respect that the mod is user friendly though. DS editing software sucked. Nobody's denying this.

And the "something more features" such as the lamp and telescope are somewhat trivial and I can easily go through the whole game with out using either.

I'm not telling you guys your work isn't good. Its by far the most impressive mod I've seen for any game. But it should be for the time thats been put into it. Most people make a new game from scratch in that time. So perhaps I was mistaken when I thought you guys wanted to create something new rather then just modernize Thief 2.

Either way when I play Thief or Thief 2 or even Thief 3 (dont know why people bag on it so much) im not pleased by how it looks aesthetically by any means. But as soon as I watch AI interactions and play the well thought out level designs and see everything react as it should a wave of relief washes over me after a day of playing dark mod. Sorry to be blunt on that point.

My ideas where overzealous and for the most part un welcomed. But the truth is the only reason I recommended such things is as I played DarkMod I wondered "why not just go back to thief 2". That gentlemen is what I'm trying to get at here. So either way.

The works good guys. But not nearly complete. Not by a long shot. But you have all sunk so much time into this that I understand that you guys want to bring your work to a conclusion.

I know I dont have the ability to bring any of these ideas to fruition. I'm a consumer. Not a producer when it comes to gaming at least. So I understand if a lot of what I say rings from what you would perceive a position of ignorance. But as a consumer. Since I was a wee little boy. It doesnt top even Thief Gold. To say you have taken stealth gaming farther then anyone else is a massive overstatement sir.

Modern gaming has taken a strange turn. Believe me I was disappointed in many ways by DS and releases this year such as Skyrim (still a great game though) which is why my computer is loaded by classics. But the market is what the market is. I understand you guys aren't trying to appeal to the masses now. Stealth gaming is a tiny niche. I guess I just wanted to see a game that changed this. It would be great to see stealth based gaming become way more popular as apossed to sub category of more popular shooters and rpgs.

Edited by JulioTheDanks

The only limits your imagination has are the ones you set.

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I tend to agree with Springheel. I am not a developer though. The mod is pretty much where I want it to be. All we need as players is more missions to play. I've played every single one of them. The thing that TDM gives us (that no Thief game ever did) is complete flexibility. *anything* can be changed by FMAs. Since the Thief source was never and probably will never be released, only so many aspects of the game can be changed. You can't have real-time lighting. If you go the TDS route, you can't have swim-able water. We can't play TDS correctly on any platform except Windows.

--- War does not decide who is right, war decides who is left.

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@Julio, I'm not sure if you've noticed how embedded TDM is in a long running community. We just won recognition from Moddb for "Best Use of Community", so it's good to remember what that means. We're part of a community that's been making stealth FMs for 13 years now, 100s of them. You don't have roots that deep without becoming aware what it is about the gameplay that's been feeding that vitality for so long. Some of the changes you're talking about are in the TDS or "gamey" direction of gameplay, but if you look at the figures TDS has had the least amount of FMs made, and for good reason. Gamey mechanics suck the soul out of the game. If you wanted it even *more* gamey than TDS, it'd just make that situation worse. It's fine that you have your own opinions about what you like to play. But the first job of TDM is to tap into the deep roots of our community, and on those grounds it has done very well for itself. I've always had a lot of pride in this mod.

 

BTW I was playing some T2 FMs again recently and I noticed that our AI were outperforming T2's AI. The most noticeable difference is in the movement & mantling though, which is much nicer in TDM.

 

Since the Thief source was never and probably will never be released, only so many aspects of the game can be changed.

 

It hasn't been officially "released", but it has been made available and there is a team already working on it to improve the game, though on the downlow, which is a good thing.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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You see no shame in taking 7 years to duplicate a game using a different source code and graphics engine and then saying that you and your team have taken stealth gaming farther then anyone else?

 

Did you read Melan's post above that listed a dozen different ways that we've taken TDM further than any of the previous Thief games (and those just scratch the surface)? Can you point to a single game out there, professional or otherwise, that has AI as responsive as TDM's AI? AI that can notice when lights are put out and relight them? AI that notice when doors are left open? Who notice if loot is missing? Who warn their comrades about specific trouble they've seen? Who become more sensitive to the player depending on how suspicious they are? Who actually calculate good hiding places when deciding where to search?

 

If you think TDM is just "duplicating" Thief, then you really have no idea what you're talking about.

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Deadly shadows had AI that noticed loot missing. They also noticed when doors where open and retreated to get help when severely injured usually returning with several other AI. They didn't relight torches though, but did notice when they were put out. And they certainty didn't calculate good hiding spots. The growing awareness and suspicion is new as well. Your absolutely right Springheel. Those are features I overlooked. Perhaps I was quick to judge. Many of the missions I played the AI did NOT display those qualities. But after playing Heart of Lone Salvation and A Score to Settle I feel like I was some what critical. In terms of the actual setting though it is a duplicate. But to say its gameplay dynamics are the same was foolish of me and I was really talking with no idea. I love the mod. Dont get me wrong. And I always wondered why DS had basically no fan missions. Mantling is much better. DS's was very picky on where you could mantle and on what. I feel like I chose literally the worst fan missions to pick from. Because I just completed A Score to Settle and it was like playing a different game. Sorry team for going on you. I spoke too soon!!! XD

Edited by JulioTheDanks

The only limits your imagination has are the ones you set.

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So I just play tears of st lucia. Had a blast. Most of my previous criticisms slowly disappeared as I played the mission through. Only real issue with the game is the AI needs tweaking and thats it. This manifested itself in two ways. I opened a door and a hammer comes right at me. There was another (civilian) in the room with him. He however was not alerted like his friend who I later hacked down. Sometimes AI attack one another in confusion as well. By the way hammer voice acting is perfect. Only voice acting that could use some improvement are some of the guard and thugs. Got a little frustrated when I couldnt find the lever for the secret chest but was then somehow magically pointed in the right direction by a jingling noise? Is this intentional aid or a glitch? Upon further combat experiences the only thing i noticed is there feet stay completely stationary. Maybe some animation tweaking? Sword fighting usually has some footwork and TG and T2 guards do foot work. Other then that I was amazed by the contrast. A lot of the issues are obviously different from map to map when I thought it was universal for the whole game which is why I keep going on about a set series of campaign missions. In my missions list a lot of mission names are listed "Score to Settle, A". Is this a common bug? Also my copy of DOOM 3 is on steam and every time I restart the game after loading a mission it sais game not available. Common I'm guessing. What I meant by the menu issues is setting the controls is somewhat finicky. Say I set the inventory scroll the right right arrow and left. it will still have say only right as "right arrow and ]".

The only limits your imagination has are the ones you set.

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You see no shame in taking 7 years...

 

We are in our 7th year, but we released after 5 years in 2009. This is a small mod team made up of folks with families and full time jobs. We're not an 80 + member development team paid to work 40+ hours a week, I'm sure a lot of our members are lucky if they can dedicate 1/4 of that on a weekly basis. So no, there is absolutely no shame in taking this long to get the mod where it currently is.

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You cut the worse possible part of that quote like CNN news would lol. But yes. Valid point that I had not processed until I talked to my father who is a programmer just 2 hours ago.

The only limits your imagination has are the ones you set.

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Hm.. Just read through this fascinating thread and would want to point out that we definately need to build the community top X mission list.

 

I think there seems to be a steady stream of new people coming here and they should be pointed towards the best missions the Mod has to offer to avoid incorrect impressions.

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Clipper

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Hm.. Just read through this fascinating thread and would want to point out that we definately need to build the community top X mission list.

 

I think there seems to be a steady stream of new people coming here and they should be pointed towards the best missions the Mod has to offer to avoid incorrect impressions.

 

Thank you Sotha thats exactly what I wanted to hear. I jumped to all kinds of conclusions because of poor mission choices. Definitely St Lucias Tears should be on this list. Its easy and a good intro to DM. But other missions I found either too difficult for my ill experienced self or poorly designed.

 

On DOOM 3's new feed on Steam it says: Doom turning into Thief. First thing, fallowed by a small article about your mod. So anyone with Doom on Steam is going to be aware of Dark Mod and start investigating. A compiled list of good missions should be a objective for you guys as I'm sure many will experience frustrating and mixed results without some sort of guide.

I know for a fact Tears of St. Lucia is a perfect mission for new players to try. Its relatively simple and easy and I found playing it rather relaxing and enjoyable rather then raging over The Lone Heart of Salvation or The Chalice of Kings.

The only limits your imagination has are the ones you set.

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