The End Is Nigh

[grayman]

I can only talk for myself but, when I say "TDM needs a campaign", is because I feel TDM needs its own set of rules, conventions, vocabulary, its own universe and other adjectives. Something to serve as a guideline for mappers, mainly.

 

This wiki isn't sufficient?

[Diego]

Sufficient maybe. But a campaign would be much more efficient and inspiring.

[SiyahParsomen]

Sufficient maybe. But a campaign would be much more efficient and inspiring.

 

exactly. If St Lucia haven't inspire me, I would not be in here now.

[demagogue]

I see it as a branding issue. TDM hasn't done enough to brand itself (at least the traditional ways games get branded), so people "don't know what to expect from it", or what it offers. As I understand how branding works (not much really), it's definitely a kind of magical thinking, but a magic that works.

 

The thing that gets me, where I'm sympathetic with Spring's whole take, is that we're not really here to commodify ourselves, and in fact that would run against a lot of why we *are* here ... since it implies we need to add a lot of popups and bling and "Awesome!!" barks from helicopters that follow you around to get people excited, the sorts of things TDM was designed to get *away* from in TDS so we could focus on the core gameplay and hone it.

 

In that respect, TDM is a lot more about a kind of lifestyle game (you play it to get absorbed into the gameplay and stories, just like we did with T2 FMs for so many years) than it is a commodity game (you play it for a one-off experience to say you've "done" it; that was entertaining). But even that kind of idea apparently has to be branded to get the message across... The whole issue is sort of its own dilemma, brand or lifestyle/community? (But can you have both?)

[Springheel]

exactly. If St Lucia haven't inspire me, I would not be in here now.

 

That kind of works against the point, since St. Lucia isn't a campaign.

 

I see it as a branding issue. TDM hasn't done enough to brand itself (at least the traditional ways games get branded), so people "don't know what to expect from it",

 

This is a valid point. In the early years, we specifically leaned against branding TDM, in order to allow greater freedom for mappers. We resisted naming the protagonist, so that people could pretend they were playing Garrett if they wanted. We resisted getting into too much detail about the setting, so that mappers would have the freedom to do what they wanted. Was that a bad decision?

[SiyahParsomen]

That kind of works against the point, since St. Lucia isn't a campaign.

 

3 St. Lucia in a row = mind blowing.

[Diego]

This is a valid point. In the early years, we specifically leaned against branding TDM, in order to allow greater freedom for mappers. We resisted naming the protagonist, so that people could pretend they were playing Garrett if they wanted. We resisted getting into too much detail about the setting, so that mappers would have the freedom to do what they wanted. Was that a bad decision?

 

St. Lucia is a good example of a good and inspiring mission. Maybe a campaign imply something huge, but it could be simply a sequence of missions coherent with eachother, in the same universe. I think branding is a good word.

About your question. I don't know. In the beginning it made a lot ot sense to lean against thief but, as TDM grows and develops into something unique... I still don't know. lol

[Sotha]

We resisted getting into too much detail about the setting, so that mappers would have the freedom to do what they wanted. Was that a bad decision?

 

Let us put it like this:

TDM is still alive. Many mods die prematurely. Therefore TDM has been a success. Since we cannot know what would have been the other decisions fate, we must assume, because TDM is still alive, that the decision must have been the correct one.

 

It is not trivial to generate unique background story for a mod. If it were written poorly, it would have facilitated the early demise of TDM.

 

I see two big things coming:

1) standalone

2) the campaign

 

These two are the big things that can, if PR is played correctly, elevate TDM to the rank of #1 stealth game out there. Imagine how cool it would be if these two were to coincide. TDM 2.0 release, fully standalone and comes bundled with a killer, full, long campaign of high quality. Standalone would make it available to everyone. Campaign would flesh out the factions and the game world. Yup, if that would not work, nothing will.

[_Atti_]

Everyone should involve him/herself in this mod as much as he/she enjoys it.

There should be no pressure on anyone, especially the seasoned devs. TDM's dev team achieved all the goals that was set.

It was never meant as a towering piece of gaming, but a solid foundation for one.

 

I think people really should move on(from whining), and let the era of brave builds begin. There is so much untackled opportunity in there.

Maybe it's not TDM that was born for popularity in itself. It's name screams to creators that 'Hey, you build whatever, its up to you!'

It's 'The dark mod'. Not 'Chronicles of Bridgeport', or 'Farrel the Masterthief'.

 

I dont believe an 'official TDM' campaign will bring a fortune of modders to this scene. In fact i think TDM is very succesful in bringing in modders in itself. Radiant and D3 modding however friendly it looks to us, is not for the faint of heart, yet there are authors many, and even more people trying their hands.

 

Players and fanbase. What every author craves for somewhere deep, could be won however. But it needs not be the 'official campaign'. It could be the Sly project, or whatever It needs not even be set in the base TDM world the wiki suggests.

 

Polished, inspired and most importantly brave levels built by individuals or teams are the important steps towards something interesting.

 

Projects should take over most of development beyond 1.8. In Thief times if some people came up with brilliant new gameplay or something it couldn't be implemented back into the main thing. In TDM, it's possible that if a project does for example a mission with crossbows, to be implemented in the main mod so it can be used optionally in other FMs. All it needs is an approval from a handful of mod directors and it's in. Same goes for assets.

Edited August 12, 2012 by _Atti_

[lost_soul]

Do keep in mind that Thief was always an underground game. By that I mean most of the people who play Madden games, or Counter-Strike, or Cod have never even heard of it. I have mentioned TDM to people I know in person and I told them it was inspired by Thief, which they had of course never heard of.

 

There are millions of action games to choose from, and millions of sports games to choose from, but Stealth games are quite rare.

[demagogue]

Re: The balance between branding a world and giving more open reign to mappers, I think we are easing more into the right balance now than we were early on. If I had to pick a useful model, it might be how comic characters & worlds get branded... where you could actually have very different conceptions of "Batman" from very camp to very dark, but he has some definite features, and we have different conceptions of the same city and history... Actually it was useful to think of the city as populated with a number of different characters, so you weren't even stuck with one protagonist but more like the "DC world". There are some underlying shared landmarks, but the attitude and focus can be very different across maps.

 

And then when I think of "landmarks", I think about some really big, world-changing things that setup the world or events, that don't actually limit too much what you can do with them, like the mythic founding of the Builders, or some bitter war or civil war, or some sensational event or revolution Bridgeport went through that still has echoes...

 

Edit: It's all kind of academic to talk about it though. It's not a matter of adding stuff to the wiki but having maps out there that memorably bring some big, world-shaping fictional pieces to life.

[Maethius]

A lot of input on this thread about using a campaign to fill out the world, and I just thought I would drop one of my two cents here about that. Think about such, eh, similar titles, such as TDP. The first game WAS a tour through the world. It set up the environment of the City, outlined the factions and let the player see how they interacted, touched on the Precursors and other historic concepts, gave a sampling of the bestiary, demonstrated how majic worked, revealed the antagonist, and resolved the central plot while leaving the whole world open. TDMA was not so much about new factions as an historic turning point in that world; a new antagonist and new technologies, to be sure, but by this point the world was very well established. The player is experienceing changes that are only impactful because he knows the world... "the Hammers are divided?!" mixed with a little, "oh, crap... more metal flooring...."

 

Dark Mod has set up some nice factions and the wiki has some good details, and the campaign is a great way to see how they interact in story. It would be a good chance to just glimpse at a few protagonist/antagonist and supporting characters... even when you can't see the dark enemy in LOTR, we know his name. Even when we didn't know his proper name or read about any specific events dealing with him in The Hobbit, we heard of "the Necromancer." As I see it, the campagin is the community's chance to fill out a rich world:

 

Levels = a physical view of the architecture and different locations. In Theif we were introduced to the City, the underground, the forest, etc. Many folks were disappointed in TDS because it felt like a different world. Lesson? TDM needs to cement the feel for places in its physical world.

 

Dialogue = a taste of the cultures. This can be really challenging (especially for voice actors). I have written quite a bit of fantasy fiction with heavy cultural influences, and it can be difficult to really use terms, spellings, idoms, and slang that represent a multicultural experience. How can you get a feel from one or two dock workers that there is another country across the sea, and meet someone ten maps later that just their inflection tells you they are from that distant land? "Tellin' you, Carver, those who crossin' the Daeks float the waters... best you watch where'n your foot falls." TDM needs to define some dialog for its city and for any foreigners to add a sense that the world is larger than what we see.

 

Plots = our steady story that guides as through the other elements. The plot is there to devolop and resolve itself, yes, but it is also the tool used to introduce the player to the physical locations, meet the characters, and see how it all interacts. In this when the campaign is being outlined the developers need to be aware of splashes of content they can add; foreshadowings of possible future events, characters, technologies, etc.

 

The exciting part of such a project is that the community gets to define this world! The daunting work of this project... is that the community gets to define this world!

 

I just wish I had a bit more time to get involved.

[Springheel]

The first game WAS a tour through the world. It set up the environment of the City, outlined the factions and let the player see how they interacted, touched on the Precursors and other historic concepts, gave a sampling of the bestiary, demonstrated how majic worked, revealed the antagonist, and resolved the central plot while leaving the whole world open.

 

Yes, that's very true. And T1 was introducing all these things for the first time, which gave it a certain impact. I rather like the idea of an "introduce the setting" kind of campaign, but that requires a LOT of advance work before level building even begins. It also requires a lot of discussion...I remember back when the team was planning on an "official" campaign, we debated/argued/discussed setting and story information for nearly a year before we even thought about mapping anything (and never did, in the end).

 

TDM needs to define some dialog for its city and for any foreigners to add a sense that the world is larger than what we see.

 

Did Thief do this? I don't remember getting much of a sense of the world beyond the city from the OMs.

[jaxa]

http://thief.wikia.c...urrounding_Area

http://thief.wikia.c...egory:Geography

http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Language

 

Actually now I think the answer is no.

Edited August 13, 2012 by jaxa

[Melan]

Maethius: Those are all good points (and we are trying to consider them). One thing that defines our campaign, though, is that it is an integration of multiple partly built missions, not something which was designed from the start to be a campaign (at least not this one). We have to work with what we have, which has both advantages and disadvantages. For example, our basic plot, while it has parallels with Thief, is substantially different in that it does not hinge on having to save the world - it is a more personal story. It does not fundamentally alter the assumed TDM setting. Neither does it give a full tour of everything that is important in Bridgeport and around it. I am not even sure a campaign should do that, because if it did, then other missions could feel superfluous and tacked on (The Metal Age was facing this problem after TDP's great and appropriate closure, and IMO it never gave us a satisfactory answer. "Tell them it's over. Tell them Garrett is done." And he is. His character arc is complete. The other two games suffer for using him as a protagonist.)

 

That said, it creates world detail of various kinds and at various scales - some of which you describe in your post - and which people can build on in their own missions, using the same protagonist or a completely different one. This is the nature of shared world narratives.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Melan

[lost_soul]

"does not hinge on having to save the world"

 

Glad to hear that! The "saving the world" plot has been done to death throughout entertainment. It is more interesting when you control a character who is just out "for himself", like in the GTA games.

 

You can still do things like having the character "help others" by presenting rescue missions, or missions where characters cooperate to accomplish objectives together (not necessarily in real-time). The GTA games also did these things.

 

Wonder if we'll ever see a rescue mission in TDM?

Edited August 13, 2012 by lost_soul

[SiyahParsomen]

Wonder if we'll ever see a rescue mission in TDM?

 

you can save AI as a minor objective in one the Sotha's missions.

[demagogue]

Saving an NPC is an objective on expert in my FM as well. I like the challenge of it actually, considering you're hobbling around half the map with a body over your shoulder.

 

To respond to Maethius, all the things you mentioned were what prompted me to actually script out a campaign... with the explicit intention to feature major districts of Bridgeport, each one of the major factions and a lot of their backstory, a much larger world (the premise of it is a war between the Empire & the neighboring Menoans, who in my fiction are similar to the Turks to Bridgeport's Constantinople), and the player character himself is another racial minority associated with the Menoan region (but not himself Menoan. I mean he was born in Bridgeport and has only ever known it. But it means basically everybody distrusts him lol.), and it's a definite story arc for this character. And it does go through pretty epic, world-changing events (the whole war thing) that leaves Brigeport & the Empire different than when it started.

 

But a campaign script like this is just the flip side of the problems that Melan mentioned. Yeah it has a lot of good pieces for a "defining" campaign, but no one to build the maps, no base of maps to even start with, and a lot of features I have no doubt people will take strong issue with (I already know Spring won't like my treatment of the Inventors haha), so even if it (or parts of it) did come out, there'd be a problem trying to call it the "canon" interpretation of the world, since it just wouldn't have consensus. And yeah, it'd be drawing some lines in the world that other FM mappers might not want so they can make their own FMs. But I've always understood it myself as just my personal story & interpretation of the Dark Mod world, and I'd rather probably keep it as my own (even if I don't finish any or many of the FMs), so I could keep the strong punch to the story & tell it how I think it needs to be told. But, that said, if it became a team project later on, I'd have to be more flexible then and work with other people. But for right now, I'm happy with just working FMs for it on my own.

[Albert]

Yes and no, people are slowly coming over from the dromed/darkengine to darkradiant/darkmod.

 

I've been around on-and-off. I can't really speak for the whole community (And putting the mob psychology aside), but for me at least, the tremendous issue is aesthetic and compatability. The Doom 3 engine first-off, leaves some of the TTLG community behind, given it's system requirements being quite higher than the old Thief games. Secondly, and I feel this is why the mod should aspire to dovetail itself so it is freely modified by a second and upcoming team of different tastes or whatnot -- we'd see a boost in the potential FM makers. There's so much here, and yet I think there's this really underlying issue that we all dislike the feel of the game. It's a well-made mod so far, but overall, from what I've heard, it's just not Thief because it doesn't really evoke that mood. It's the whole "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it" issue, because most people look at this waterpark of a game and feel cheated, in the particulars of asthete that the Thief games so wonderfully evoked.

In short, if we fix all the bugs and such and make the game standalone, I would hope there would be momentum from a few people to modify the look of the entire system to possibly meet people halfway -- I mean, I figure there would be some competing clans on that sort of thing. And all the better for the end-players, with a variety of good FMs like you all hoped for. Following me here guys?

 

(Pardon my terrible grammar; I've been couped up all summer with little to do and it's made me completely stupid at writing again. )

Edited August 17, 2012 by Albert

[_Atti_]

Aesthetic wise, i think i know what you mean. Thief leaves a lot more to the creative mind of the watcher, while in doom you got to use the best textures aligning and high end geometry otherwise you are deemed to spot all the errors and blankness,

 

In other words, Its a lot harder to create the illusion of an atmosperic scene in Doom than in Thief..

 

As for the system requirements, i dont agree that it present any kind of barrier.

Its kinda cheap nowadays to update pc so that it runs Doom3 decently.

Not to mention it gets almost necessary as replacement of older deteriorating rams/processors are a lot more expensive than buying new few years old types..That inevitably leads to motherboard change which than leads to the need of a whole change of components anyway.,

There are in fact i think more problem with running Thief properly nowadays than Doom3.

[demagogue]

My little 11" Asus netbook with less than 1GHz CPU, peanuts for memory, and an ancient video card could still run Doom3. It's more than Thief2, that's true. But compared to all the contemporary engines out there it's way on the low end.

 

As for "evoking that mood", I think some of that is atmosphere (which I think has been more than met. Flakebridge Monastery had it, St. Lucia's had it...) and some of it is attitude, which partly depends on a person's expectations, which is where the branding comes in that I was talking about above. The role of expectations and being reeled in emotionally just can't be underestimated I think. But if you just played the FMs, the atmosphere is definitely there in a number of them already.

[Professor Paul1290]

I don't want to sound too callous, but I really can't help but see attempting to better "evoke the mood" as a pit of diminishing returns that may not be worth throwing that much more time at.

 

I don't feel like some people's objections to the aesthetics can be addressed in a way that would be an effective use of time. I don't see how this wouldn't just result in endless back and forth tweaking that would just be a sink for time that would have been better spent on other things.

 

If you think this sounds like a sore spot for me then that wouldn't be far off the mark. TDM isn't the only project where I've seen people complain about such nebulous things as "atmosphere" or "mood" and offer very little usable feedback that could be used to remedy the problem.

I have NEVER seen a situation where the kind of specific tastes that some of Thief fanbase seems to show (again, the kind that are very picky but don't generate much usable feedback) were addressed in a way that was worth the time or money spent, and until I see one I don't think I can see putting that much more into aesthetics as a worthwhile endeavor.

 

 

Note that my opinion does not represent that of the TDM team or even the majority of the TDM fanbase, and they may have very different views on the matter.

Anyway, that is my opinion.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Professor Paul1290

[grayman]

We can't address nebulous mood or atmosphere "complaints".

 

Is there a specific list that represents the thinking of more than a single person?

[Springheel]

we all dislike the feel of the game.

 

Why? And who is "we"?

 

It's a well-made mod so far, but overall, from what I've heard, it's just not Thief because it doesn't really evoke that mood.

 

Of course it's "Not Thief", and it never claims to be. But what do you mean by "evoke the mood"? That's one of those statements that can mean a dozen different things. Many people argued that TDS "wasn't Thief" because it didn't have the same mood/atmosphere, although it was obviously "Thief" in by any objective measurement. In my opinion, TDM is closer to the "mood" of Thief than TDS was.

 

So what exactly does one have to do to "evoke the mood" of Thief? Have Stephen Russell narrate? Use 256x256 textures? Have intelligent AI opponents? Have rope arrows and swimmable water? Have strong stealth mechanics? Have essentially the exact same toolkit as Thief? Without specifics, the "mood" comment doesn't mean anything.

 

TDM isn't the only project where I've seen people complain about such nebulous things as "atmosphere" or "mood" and offer very little usable feedback that could be used to remedy the problem.

 

Exactly.

[RPGista]

In a way that is understandable - the issue of atmosphere or familiarity is something entirely subjective that only a minority seem to notice in a significant way. Im sure Albert is more like trying to explain a factor that might be lacking for some of the hardcore thief fans, but that issue only ever arises if you insist on seeing TDM as a rigid continuation of the Thief universe, which it is not (at least for some of us fans). Many of those in this line of thinking fail to see the actual potential gaming experience waiting to be constructed with this deep "sneaking game creation" tool, the possibilities posed by the challenging and functional AI, brought by physics, readables, capable in-editor conversation and objectives systems that allow even non-coders to come up with unique effects and world mechanics, a huge art asset that is a base just waiting for the input of more creative mission authors, all that in a very decent engine that makes it relatively easy to insert new models, music, sounds.

 

This has been said time and time again, but it is not just about, for some, getting over the fact that there differences in TDM, but more importantly, for people to realise that this is a huge archive of free content for anyone to come up with their own adventure idea, that gives you a very generous jump start if you ever wanted to create a fantasy stealth game experience. All TDM missions are unique regarding story and environment, but you can already find missions like Winter Harvest, Reap what you sow, or if I may add, Remembrance of Him, which use this mod's content to create very distinct gameplay experiences - where its much more about using the great AI and all the fun mechanics that the Mod provides as a base, than to portray any resemblance to Thief games and universe in particular.

Edited August 19, 2012 by RPGista