The End Is Nigh

[Mr M]

As a loyal Thief fan, - simply, for me, if TDM did not evoke the right "Thiefy" atmosphere, feelings, mood,....... I would not be playing TDM FM's -

 

and I am, and greatly enjoying them! They are fantastic, and still will get better... amazing!

 

The mood, atmosphere etc is not solely up to the engine, but more-so, up to the mapper

 

 

m

Edited August 17, 2012 by Mr M

[Melan]

Well, I can understandf the sentiment - it is not like The Metal Age feels like proper Thief. It can be made to look and feel that way, but on its own, it just doesn't come together. It lacks a coherent, compelling vision. Fortunately, TDM includes the tools and the assets to make missions that feel like proper Thief, again. If people will build them, that is.

 

This post is 100% unadulterated objective fact, and anyone who disagrees with it is objectively and literally wrong.

[Albert]

Lovely how my idea of finishing the game up and labeling the whole kit & kaboodle under a GPL license to allow for any experimentation with the, admittedly, ambiguous buzzword called aesthetic -- yes, I'm personally quite certain that this is one sticking point -- got lost in all the butthurt feelings of someone trying to diss your work or whateve... If we are to go along with my idea, then we may, indeed, see more FMs. Albeit, there'll be dozens of interpretations with texture/sound/etc packs and whatnot but the ID Tech 4 engine is good for that. Mods. Like what TDM is... A MOD.

 

If you guy's think the model is fine, then I won't complain, but I think it's petty to go on about it like I'm really trying to lambast you for it. As if the TTLG community has some conservative dogma. Don't become too hypocritical yourselves, and just get the damn thing out there. The game is fun, the graphics capabilities leave so much to be savored... Just let the community run with it and beyond.

 

... In the form of mod-friendliness. A meta-system of mod capabilities of swapping out entire texture-packs and AI, or whatever. That sort of thing.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Albert

[Melan]

All that can be done right now. It just takes a vision of what is to be accomplished and dedicated work to realise that vision.

[Springheel]

just get the damn thing out there. The game is fun, the graphics capabilities leave so much to be savored... Just let the community run with it and beyond.

 

What exactly do you think we've been doing? TDM has been "out there" for almost three years now. No one needs permission from us to experiment with it or create their own assets.

 

got lost in all the butthurt feelings of someone trying to diss your work or whateve.

 

You make a post asking for something that is already possible, while at the same time making statements like "we all dislike the feel of the game", and "most people look at this waterpark of a game and feel cheated" and then wonder why people might be terse with you?

[AluminumHaste]

I can't find who wrote it but someone in this thread wrote:

 

"It's a well-made mod so far, but overall, from what I've heard, it's just not Thief because it doesn't really evoke that mood."

 

So if I read this correctly, this poster is making a judgement on a game that they have not even played? From what you heard? Wow, speaking of nebulous.

Try it yourself, if you don't like it give us some suggestions. Saying "it just doesn't work for me" is not a suggestion, it's a complaint based on a totally subjective topic.

I personally would rather play Darkmod over Thief1 or 2 these days, there's just so many things that TDM fixed. I love the atmosphere of the TDM maps, some of them more than others of course.

 

and just get the damn thing out there. The game is fun, the graphics capabilities leave so much to be savored... Just let the community run with it and beyond.

 

lol that's funny.

Go here: http://www.thedarkmod.com/downloads/

 

It's right there, the mod resource download (textures, scripts, sounds etc) and below that is the source code download. Any person can download it for free, and do ANYTHING they want with it. If anyone in the community would like to make code changes (and people already have used some of our source for other projects) they can.

[Thor]

Hey, the mod is what it is. And I like it that way. Personally, I never really felt like playing Thief and I didn't really miss it. That said it's a bit tiring to read so many discuss the "thiefy feel" or the lack of it over and over again. What's wrong with the mod feeling different? I mean I know it's been discussed to death but some people will like it and some never will. Who cares? We don't need 'em. Do you think this community is too small? I suppose some more advertising would be welcome, especially when this becomes standalone. I really wonder if and if so, then how much will this community grow.

[Diego]

I share that feeling, TDM has been its own thing for a while now.

 

Even when I occasionally replay some Thief game, my feelings are like "this doesn't feel like TDM... how do I mantle?". The comparison is now backwards lol

[Sotha]

I was thinking about this "the end is nigh" thread the other day. From my perspective:

 

TDM v1.08 is in the works

bugtracker shows bugs being squished

greebo is contributing a zombie model

the team now seems to feel that the TDM standalone is doable and are working towards the goal.

a whole campaign is in the works

new people have reported that they are trying out DR

others have been contributing textures and models

some are working on translations.

 

Things are looking quite promising at present. Everything must some day die. But the activity level around here indicates that for TDM, the end is certainly not nigh. Every community member throwing themselves in to help pushes the end further away.

[demagogue]

Reports of Dark Mod's impending death are greatly exaggerated.

[wheek]

Hello all, newbie here, just started editing after finding out how to disable Catalyst AI on the most up to date drivers (it's actually turned out to be easy and no extra software required!), absolutely loving playing a few FM's. So good to play a modern engine with rope arrows, swimmable water and lockpicking that isn't stupid and easy. Anyway....

 

I can understand the idea behind this thread especially as the d3 engine is now 8 years old (!), but I've recently become a convert mainly due to the annoyance in thief4's ongoing delay...

 

I've been following the starter threads and I have to say the editor is incredible, I don't think I've even scratched the surface on what's possible but so far I feel confident enough that I think I could make a reasonably interesting level (probably wouldn't win aesthetic awards).

 

I have to wonder though with the criticism that "TDM doesn't have a T2X style campaign", has anyone thought of writing some "level stories" (can't think of a better way of describing this), i.e. just a series of ideas about what they'd like to see in a series of levels, so giving inspiration to level builders. It would be nice to go to a list of level specs that people would like to see existing, the more detailed the better.

 

I have a feeling that the level I'm making at the moment (which is an extension from the starting tutorial) is gonna progress organically, basically, I'm an old school taffer (love 1 and 2, 3 is "good") and I just wanna play a levels like I remember, so... a huuuuuuge mansion with grounds and long corridors and a bank level, I'm determined to make a new bank level! Current one feels more like the starts of a mansion level, I've got (what I think will be) a grounds keeper's house with a boundary wall and some grounds outside (where you start), thinking about starting on a huge mansion next, but I'm still getting to grips with vis-portals. It's all really cool stuff though and I love how easily (and quickly) you can make concepts like a working lift, lights controlled by switches, assigning keys to AI and pick pocketing them, enabling an AI to open a locked door (but you can't), making rain showers and rain splashes on the ground, telling AI where to go and makin' 'em run , locked chests, setting up torches and water etc etc etc, so cool, so easy

[grayman]

Welcome, wheek!

 

Bank level = gooood.

[SeriousToni]

Haha wheek I like that photo of yours!!

 

Bank and mansion levels? Sounds good to me! =)

[TheUnbeholden]

greebo is contributing a zombie model

 

I thought there already was a zombie model.

[Radiant]

Let us put it like this:

TDM is still alive. Many mods die prematurely. Therefore TDM has been a success. Since we cannot know what would have been the other decisions fate, we must assume, because TDM is still alive, that the decision must have been the correct one.

 

It is not trivial to generate unique background story for a mod. If it were written poorly, it would have facilitated the early demise of TDM.

 

I see two big things coming:

1) standalone

2) the campaign

 

These two are the big things that can, if PR is played correctly, elevate TDM to the rank of #1 stealth game out there. Imagine how cool it would be if these two were to coincide. TDM 2.0 release, fully standalone and comes bundled with a killer, full, long campaign of high quality. Standalone would make it available to everyone. Campaign would flesh out the factions and the game world. Yup, if that would not work, nothing will.

I really appreciate this idea.

I think the main issue for working at a whole campaign is to motivate a team over months to years. So here is an alternative idea: Why not think out a whole story concept, in communication with the community. After that, seperate the story into ~5-10 levels with some guidelines and objectives. Anyone of the active mappers in the whole community can pick up their favorite level and work on that. It is also an opportunity for a mapper when he is lacking of ideas for a new mission. He can open up his own thread, get some feedback, ask for help to join him, etc.

When the motivation is down, he can give the map back into the hands of the community, so someone else completes the work.

[Xarg]

A mission built entirely by distributed, turn based collaborative effort? That could actually produce some very interesting results, and reminds me of the Boatmurdered campaign that the Dwarf Fortress community ran. I'd actually like to see the end result of this. A changelog would also be nice, incase someone spends their time allotment doing "under the hood" improvements that aren't readily noticable upon loading the map.

[demagogue]

The Chain Project was a project we did over at TTLG. Somebody bumped the thread on it again this week, so I've been thinking about it. I think it'd be a great idea for TDM as well. I doubt that method could sustain a whole planned campaign, because people have very different work styles & schedules. But what's very doable is somebody makes a small map, a kind of central framework for people to build off of, then they pass it on to somebody to add a few rooms & gameplay, then you pass it on to another person for a few more rooms, etc, until everybody's had a turn. Then you probably want some tweaks to make it a playable map. It ends up being pretty random & fun.

 

The one lesson I'd give from working on the Chain Project is that you need a leader (a hub), and after every person has worked on it (the spokes), give it back to the leader to make sure the map is in working order, and then pass it to the next spoke. It makes sure there's always a working master copy no matter what, and if somebody doesn't turn in their turn on time, you just revert back (or take what they've done so far) and send it to the next person & they have to get back in line to try again next time, to keep things on a schedule.

[Sotha]

Mapping is a very personal artistic endeavor. The confusion around the *shiver* translation thread is one instance of this.

 

It would require mappers of certain type to pull it off. I personally would see it as if it was multiple artists painting one single painting... Disagreements would be human, very likely and destructive.

 

Also the end product would be inconsistent in style and quality.

[Radiant]

Mapping is a very personal artistic endeavor. The confusion around the *shiver* translation thread is one instance of this.

[...]

Indeed it is. I worked at a D3 mapping project in the past with 2 other guys. We "solved" this artistic differences by splitting the map into thematic areas. The machine room and the cantine for example. They could be totally different in style, because the first one is dark and loud and the second one is for living. We also made certain to only use a specific set of textures for one area. So it also can be an opportunity. (Mapping the things you are best at.)

The areas has been put together by the main mapper, so yes, it needs one person who is able to look at all the neccesary tweaks and possible issues.

 

To come back to the idea: The concept would include layouts and rough concept art as well, so you have less latitude to break the style. - I still think that it is possible with the right persons and a very high level of quality control.

It also needs many rules, which begin at the high of a brushed table. x_X

[PPoe]

I thing that the team is working on the campain: The crucible of omens. And if I can guess by the names of the autors it will be very good.

[demagogue]

I say embrace the inconsistency & chaos and go for a chain project where you *intend* for everybody to disagree and do their own thing with elements that do not fit together at all. It's its own kind of chaotic surreal magic.

[Sir Taffsalot]

The cons - The more people working on it, the more conflicting ideas there will be. Can you all agree on a main story, art direction and who is responsible for what?

 

Also some people will be more commited than others. People will think this is a good idea and sign up. When it comes to actually producing the goods it might be a different story. Look at The Beginners Contest. We had more people sign up for that competition than any other. In the end we only had 3. This is not a knock on the entries. They were taffing awesome!

 

The Pros - You can't be good at everything. Some people excell at gameplay, others visuals. Some people can think outside the box for ideas, some are like myself, more traditional when it comes to coming up with ideas for FMs. This a great way for people to benefit from what they lack. Perhaps even learn and implement these new skills in thier own future FMs.

 

Working in a team is good for morall. If people are tired or burnt out, seeing other peoples work and having other people cheer them on can be a heavy motivator to continue.

 

Personally I have no idea if the pros outweigh the cons or vice versa. Nevertheless I would really like to see people give this a go. If it works out or it's a complete disaster I'll be very interested to see the results of this experiment.

[Springheel]

There was a "community map" project a few years ago where people passed a map around and added sections to it. Don't know what ever happened to it.

[Jesps]

There was a "community map" project a few years ago where people passed a map around and added sections to it. Don't know what ever happened to it.

 

Is it this?

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/8881-the-sketch-map/

Last post 2009, hmm

[Albert]

What exactly do you think we've been doing? TDM has been "out there" for almost three years now. No one needs permission from us to experiment with it or create their own assets.

 

Yes, well this is a community, mind you, that still is shell-shocked over the incident w/ the dark engine source. Nobody in this community is an actual developer, and even mappers aren't that informed on the workings of licensing. Just make it clear that you have no ill-will towards any forks. In fact, move this out onto a more inviting platform like github.

 

You make a post asking for something that is already possible, while at the same time making statements like "we all dislike the feel of the game", and "most people look at this waterpark of a game and feel cheated" and then wonder why people might be terse with you?

 

Alrighty, now I gotta point something out to you. When I said those, it was within context to what I felt at the time. And again, you prove my point. I never said I disliked the feel of the game as in myself; I'm saying that from who I've talked to, and what I've gathered, PEOPLE are not universally in on this game (Me throwing myself into the mix was just stupidity of having been away from the writing desk, for awhile. A third person on top of that was a overlooked ambiguity on my part.). Again, people in the Thief community worked just as hard as you guys to create a feel and an identity around the Thief game. People threw new ideas into the pool, and others yet again proved that the Thief formula can go paces further...

 

What I'm saying is basically, you guys might wanna clear that up with the rest of us. Even if you yourselfs have devoted as much as you have to the project (Which I personally commend you for), what I notice is that you guys are outsiders to most of TTLG's colorful, of both good and bad, members. Good intentions or not, what you've done is you've run with this well-developed idea, and have not exactly been on the same page with the TTLG community. Again, I'm speaking of this as in the nuances and the whole feel. The medium, if you will, which these people have spent equal sums of time in building up from a very small game into a very large one with tons of variety and experimentation on THAT feel which Looking Glass themselves had honed.

 

Again, I might have been in the wrong to assume you guys weren't concerned with dovetailing the thing for when you finally kick it out of the way to focus on your personal lives... But, I'm at least certain that for as long as I've known the Thief scene now, that there's alot of honest things you guys aren't picking up on. Different strokes for different folks, if you catch my drift.

 

Again, sorry if I'm being an ass about this. I care for TDM as much as you guys do, but I feel that in the process of it being developed, alot of veteran map-makers have felt opposed to the whole look and feel of the game which you've all crafted. I'm just saying...

 

You are good off in that this was your work. Your creation. I just wanted to argue for the sake of what I picked up from the OP (Against, of course. I'm feeling that TDM has much to prove, yet. It's not dead quite. Rather, it's what I've brought across in these last few sentences: Just not what everyone on TTLG was hoping for). That people who you ideally wanna see in on the project, haven't been coerced into coming on in. Bikerdude being an exception.

Edited August 27, 2012 by Albert