The End Is Nigh

[demagogue]

Yes they're all (or most of them) technically red herrings and it's much more an "ethos" thing, where your mind is set in advance and you just filter *everything* through these colored lenses. I mean, I think we all recognized that & figured it out really early on. You'd have to change your mindset *first* and take this leap of faith into it, and then you can see what's exciting about TDM.

 

That said, on the TDM side there's an ethos going on too, and we get really excited not just about what TDM does but what it means -- its independence & DIY spirit & glorification of immersion gaming without all the gamey popups everywhere and all that -- and we probably have our own colored glasses on too... But you know, people like their glasses sometimes haha... You can't "argue" through them. What you can do is just keep doing your thing, and sometimes people notice and get inspired.

[AluminumHaste]

It's our job to simplify, clarify, make it super easy and especially APPEAR easy.

 

Yes well, that's been done, for years it's been done. Wiki articles, helpful members, your very own tutorial videos (may be unrelated) and more. And what do we get? People like ShadowHide who call everything our mappers/devs make, shit. People like Aida who thinks everyone who has a different opinion then his are sycophants and suck ups, and many more who thankfully have NOT come here to spread their venom.

How much more do we have to do to make it easier for these people? If they have a pre conceived notion that Dark Mod is shit, or hard to install or clunky or whatever, then there's not much more we can do.

It's already super simple compared to Thief on a modern system. Anyone who can get that shit working, can get Dark Mod working with half the brains.

[Springheel]

what do we get? People like ShadowHide who call everything our mappers/devs make, shit. People like Aida who thinks everyone who has a different opinion then his are sycophants and suck ups, and many more who thankfully have NOT come here to spread their venom.

 

Don't focus so much on the vocal naysayers....they're far outweighed by the number of people who drop in to say "thanks" and "good job". It's easy to forget those sometimes.

[AluminumHaste]

Absolutely, I'll never forget them I was just stressing that it's not worth wasting more time and effort on people like that.

[Cheese]

Thanks, and great job, to everyone involved!

 

I completed A Score to Settle today, and I have downloaded and dabbled with a few other missions.

 

I have little to no real modding experience, mainly messing around with the Elder Scrolls editors (Morrowind and Oblivion); but I plan to start learning how to use the dark mod editor soon, thanks to the handy tutorial.

 

Again, thanks and great job!

Edited July 21, 2012 by Cheese

[grayman]

Welcome, Cheese!

[Mortem Desino]

I have little to no real modding experience, mainly messing around with the Elder Scrolls editors (Morrowind and Oblivion); but I plan to start learning how to use the dark mod editor soon, thanks to the handy tutorial.

Not a bad place to start, actually. It was my putzing around in the Morrowind editor that motivated me to actually start working in Half-Life 1's HAMMER editor (i.e. a more professional editor).

[demagogue]

Our editor, Dark Radiant, is fun to work with in my opinion. The great thing about modding is if you have any questions, there's a ton of information on our wiki (link is at the top of the page), or you can always just ask on the forums and someone should know the answer.

[Cheese]

Thanks for the welcome!

I'm off work, got the coffee brewed, I'm excited and determined about my first real delving into Dark Radiant. I got it up and running last night, but didn't really do much else.

I'm using the "Teach Yourself Dark Mod In One Day" and the "Dark Radiant Must Know Basic Intro" right now.

[demagogue]

Oh another piece of advice we often give newbies. For your first map, sometimes it's good to make a smallish contest sized map, think like 10-15 rooms (doesn't have to be a literal room, but 10-15 areas where stuff happens). It's easier to plan and build, doesn't get frustrating, your motivation stays up the whole time, & it's no big deal to make a few mistakes like we all do the first time around, and just makes for a more pleasant learning experience. And then when you get that under your belt you can start thinking about your mangum opus massive 3 mission campaign haha. But that's just advice; there's no rules so you can do whatever makes you happy really...

[Cheese]

Any and all advice is appreciated. The wiki is awesome though, and so far its all been pretty straightforward.

Its funny, I was looking for a game outside of Skyrim for a stopgap until Dishonored came out... And I stumbled upon TDM

Then I realized there was instruction galore for using the Dark Radiant editor. The gameplay of TDM is so engaging and fun I knew I had to learn DR.

I've found a new hobby in the DR editor heh, I can already tell.

[Cheese]

Heh "Teach yourself Dark Mod in One Day"... that would be quite a day.

I'm no where near done with the tutorial lol.

As I learn the very basics of Dark Radiant, I can only marvel at the time and effort put into everything I have experienced in the fan missions so far, as well as the editor itself.

Awe and gratitude + 200%

No questions as yet. There is a wealth of info to be found. It is exciting to learn DR!

[SeriousToni]

This cheese sounds very delicious!

[RPGista]

Thats cool my friend, take a look around the forums too, there are several tutorials listed and useful information to help you get you up to speed!

 

Some useful ones:

 

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/13583-dark-radiant-tutorial/

 

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/13902-new-komag-tutorial-video-visportal-basics/

 

http://www.shadowdarkkeep.com/videos.htm

[nbohr1more]

So, I've essentially recapped the theme of this thread as "where do we promote ourselves given our niche?" over at reddit:

 

 

The crowd at reddit likes to solve problems or look at imagur pics. The latter didn't catch on so maybe the former will.

 

[Springheel]

Wow...that airs much more of our dirty laundry than I would have....and I'm not sure what it adds to the question.

 

I also don't necessarily agree with the way you've portrayed the early days of the mod.

 

Almost as soon as the mod idea was proposed, trolls and naysayers from the site attacked the very concept on the grounds of plausibility and the engine choice. A bigger problem, however, were "Thief Loyalists" who felt such a mod as a betrayal to the franchise and made a point of groundlessly criticizing the ongoing work. Every other new post the The Dark Mod thread was likely to start a small flame war.

 

I'm not aware of anyone who thought TDM was a "betrayal of the franchise" either then or now, and while there was a lot of banter and debate about specifics in the beginning, most people were supportive, though perhaps skeptical (as anyone who has heard more than a few announcements about "I'm making a mod" would be).

 

Overall I think the post puts a far more negative spin on things than was actually the case.

[nbohr1more]

From the POV of gaining sympathetic support from reddit, it's better if they see a larger struggle than a minor obstacle so perhaps that's a bit hyperbolic but there's nothing there that truly sheds any poor light on either side as long as you keep in mind that only trolls were singled out. Let's not whitewash the past though, there was a considerable squabble over the inception of TDM and it's possible consequences for the ongoing petition to get a mission editor (dont make me google that ... LoL ) plus a certain pest spent time claiming that it wouldnt be possible to haved AI listen for the player (etc) You guys were greeted by some challenges by some folks at TTLG for sure. Though it would be exaggerating to say that it was any worse than any other mod's treatment out on the internet.

[Melan]

Welcome, Cheese! And very good to hear you are interested in the editor as well. I think you will find that it is pretty easy to create a small, not too complex mission that will still look nice and play nice. I am thinking this, especially, is the kind of FM we could use many more of - so I'm looking forward to seeing your work!

[Melan]

I'm not aware of anyone who thought TDM was a "betrayal of the franchise" either then or now, and while there was a lot of banter and debate about specifics in the beginning, most people were supportive, though perhaps skeptical (as anyone who has heard more than a few announcements about "I'm making a mod" would be).

I have seen this stuff post-release, definitely.

 

Also, ha ha ha:

I took a look at the mod, I too think the Doom III engine sucks, it just doesn't seem suited for anything.

 

 

They should use the s.t.a.l.k.e.r. xray engine, just sayin. Its tighter, has really good dynamic lighting.

So when's the new, Stalker xray-based TDM build coming out, anyone? <ducks and runs, fast>

[Springheel]

Some interesting comments. Lots of buzz about "Let's Plays", so let me just remind people again to go and watch, "like" and comment on the people already DOING LPs, like FenPhoenix and Demonfrog666. The more reaction they get, the more likely they are to make more. And the more, "I love TDM" comments people see in the comment section, the better.

[Mathuzzz]

I use to attend TTLG and played plenty of great fan missions. I think Dark mod is really good, played a few missions. Waiting for campaign and then try other, newer missions. It is improved in terms of graphics and atmosphere, it is more stable and plays better than Thief 3. But I was little dissapointed with AI. From what I have seen in the game, AI isn´t improved from Thief games at all. What I expected, and what I also expect from Thief 4 is not super graphics, but AI on higher level. Just a few examples:

-Knockouted guard is found by another, he start looking for a murderer right away, no searching him or check him if he is not asleep.

-When the guards are in searching state, they still walk mindlessly towards walls, nothing like becoming just suspicious and try to look around, or become scared or try a different patrol route, or hide in shadows himself.

-I didn´t notice guards waking up after knockouts, it always bothered me in Thief games. The only difference between backstab and knockout was different weapon usage, he won´t wake up anyway.

-People doing real things. Like there is dinner in the manor and then they all go to sleep, or to living room, or there is some kind of event that night and you have to take advantage of that. Something that was in Thief games, but in very primitive way.

 

Also what bothered me a bit about Dark mod were some animations. Guards should be sleepy, tired, doing the job they don´t like very much in the time they should be sleeping at home. They should walk lazy and have more realistic physical proportions.

 

I´m not talking for TTLG community here, it is the way I see it, but maybe it´s not just me.

 

If I listed things, that work that way in the Dark mod, that may be because I played older version.

 

Sorry if my english was bad, it isn´t my language.

I hope contributed to the discussion.

[Springheel]

Knockouted guard is found by another, he start looking for a murderer right away, no searching him or check him if he is not asleep.

 

TDM guards often do kneel down to check on the body.

 

-When the guards are in searching state, they still walk mindlessly towards walls, nothing like becoming just suspicious and try to look around, or become scared or try a different patrol route, or hide in shadows himself.

 

While you can't completely eliminate this, I rarely ever see AI walking into walls while searching.

 

 

I didn´t notice guards waking up after knockouts, it always bothered me in Thief games.

 

We debated this a great deal in the early stages of development. There are several arguments why it would be a bad idea, but the main two are 1) it encourages players to simply kill AI so they don't have to worry about them coming back and 2) it is very difficult to code reasonable behaviour for a guard who has been knocked out. Just going back to their regular patrol would be silly, but what else are they supposed to do? And what does it add to gameplay?

 

The only difference between backstab and knockout was different weapon usage,

 

Backstabbing is louder and leaves blood on the floor, and often won't work on guards with lots of armour.

 

 

People doing real things. Like there is dinner in the manor and then they all go to sleep, or to living room, or there is some kind of event that night and you have to take advantage of that. Something that was in Thief games, but in very primitive way.

 

This is already possible in TDM, though it hasn't been utilized very much in missions so far. There's at least one mission that has a set guard exchange that the player can take advantage of, and I know of another mission coming up that has a lot of this kind of thing.

 

Also what bothered me a bit about Dark mod were some animations.

 

Yes, some of the animations aren't great. But they're noticeably better than the 'rod up the back' TDS animations.

 

 

 

have more realistic physical proportions.

 

How could they be any more physically realistic?

[Thor]

Heh "Teach yourself Dark Mod in One Day"... that would be quite a day.

I'm no where near done with the tutorial lol.

As I learn the very basics of Dark Radiant, I can only marvel at the time and effort put into everything I have experienced in the fan missions so far, as well as the editor itself.

Awe and gratitude + 200%

No questions as yet. There is a wealth of info to be found. It is exciting to learn DR!

I'm on the same boat with Mr. Cheese here! Except I don't like learning DR, I like to build with it. It's fun. Don't expect me to release anything, though (not anytime soon, anyways. Nor anything spectacular). My attention span for things is about as short as the wavelength of gamma rays... which is, like, pretty damn short.

 

Also I wanted to say that going through all those "stock" resources you guys have made - all the models, textures and sounds... the vast amount of that puts me in awe. That is crazy. Probably more than an old game like Thief, eh? Makes my distant thought of making my own model or texture just as a principle "that I bring something new to the commnunity" seem unnecessary.

 

P.S. Sorry for my grammar.

[bassmanret]

Dudes,

 

I think you guys are so very much beating yourselves up over nothing. The TTLG folks are NOT what you NEED, or even what you should want. You've created a brand new game, and it is awesome! Revel in its beautiful awesomeness and ignore all negativity. It is a BRAND NEW GAME! It is not Thief, and there is nothing wrong with that!

 

I honestly don't understand this intense negativity towards the TTLG folks for somehow NOT finding TDM to be the most essential awesome perfect editor that they all MUST start using immediately. Posts that include phrases like "cold-blooded rejection" and "alarming" in the TTLG forums, in my humble opinion, do not promote enthusiasm towards TDM, and in fact, promote negative attitudes, some of which may even be realized before having played any TDM missions.

 

I don't know, guys... I'm nobody. Just wanted to let you know the opinions of an outside voice. Please, please, please, don't take offense....(I think you will anyway)

[demagogue]

No one of the TDM regulars (that I can think of just now) are really the kind to take serious offense at anything, so don't worry about that.

 

TTLG should still be an important place for us because the spirit of Dark Mod IMO is very much respectful of the legacy of Looking Glass's approach to games... not a lot of bling, popups, or gamey mechanics, very immersive, etc. And TTLG is the main custodian of that legacy & talking about games in that stripe. So we're a natural fit there, and a lot of people over there realize it. But others see it more trying to take the place of T2 than being its own game, which is their prerogative I guess. Anyway, IMO we should always keep a foothold in the TTLG community in the same way Blackcat games has... We do our own thing, but people over there can still find their way here and there's lots of cross-fertilization.