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Bikerdude

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I think what we need most right now is coordination. [...] There are a few smaller mapping tasks ahead, but where we are at right now is turning those maps into full missions, and that's a lot of small independent tasks. Take a conversation: it needs a script, it needs recorded lines, then it needs implementation. That's usually four people! You need to coordinate this effort, oversee it and know what needs to be done. You need to communicate with external helpers, get cutscene art, music and whatever (we have a few great vocal actors who have already done very good work, BTW!).

 

Both mapping and story are maybe 90% complete. In a few missions, it may be 85%, but that's the exception, and it's mostyl non-geometric work that needs to be done. Mind you, these are large maps, generally a size category larger than what is currently considered large among TDM missions.

 

So you have the geometry, but you do not have AI, paths, objectives and stuff? And you have 3 persons working. And how many LARGE missions does the campaign contain? Sounds like you are running out of momentum as you are outnumbered against the amount of missions. A single guy doing all the non-geometry-stuff on more than one mission is likely to be burned out, because the final pushes of the FM are the most painful ones.

 

It will be VERY inefficient spend 4 people on a single conversation.

 

You cannot divide the tasks per a single mission between the team members, because you cannot effeciently collaborativelty edit a single map file.

 

Lone Wolf Collaboration Model

Thus, the only way is to give each map to single person to finish. Jacob does mission 1, Jane does mission 2, etc.

In this scheme, Jacob needs to get acquanted with M1 and know what it is about. Then he writes the readables, conversations and implements stuff, making M1 a full playable mission. This is an awful way to do this, because Jacob will be left alone with a single mission they are not necessarily familiar with and he is likely to be burned out.

 

Does someone know a way to collaboratively edit a map file? If it is possible, this -much easier strategy- could be employed:

 

Joint Collaboration Model

1) Analyse mission 1. Everyone in team participates in a live chat. You gain a consensus what should exist in the mission.

 

2) Give each team member one or two category to implement into the map.

a ) Geometry&Optimization&Details

b ) AI&Paths&RITs

c ) Monsterclipping

d ) Readables&Conversations

e )Loot&Objectives&Objective Items

f ) Briefing&Debriefing

 

3) Finalize, test, package and store M1 into multiple safe places.

 

4) Goto M2.

 

5) Repeat with each mission until the whole campaign is finished.

 

 

The benefit of this strategy is that everyone is pushing the same mission forward. It would be more motivating to see the mission take giant leaps forward.

 

 

 

 

So what is the CoO team overall strategy to achieve the campaign anyhow?

 

Sounds like You should join the team matey.

 

Biker,

So you have NO strategy how to advance...

 

I was wishing to get to play the Campaign without spoilers, but if you guys are in trouble and really need some help... I'd rather help and get to play it one day, rather than not help and never see the campaign.

 

But I have no clue what needs to be done! Getting someone else's work, something I am completely unfamiliar with, and having to make it into a full mission sounds intimidating. I am certainly not touching this, until the strategy is clear. At present I can help bringing in ideas what kind of strategy you could use.

 

You cannot finish this project without a strategy how to move forward.

 

Could the joint collaboration model be feasable with DR layers?

Everyone gets the same starting file. Immediately, people create an own layer, for example, if I was working with Monsterclipping and Readables&Conversations, I would create layers with the same name into my copy of the map. Then I would make all my changes into the "monsterclip" layer and into "Readables&Conversations" layer. Biker would work with "Geometry & Optimization" layer on his copy of the original map.

 

At an agreed date, someone takes everyone's files and selects the layers, copies them and Pastes them into the product map. If people agree that nobody changes in the underlying core map (the one everyone started with), the source map, this approach could maybe even work!

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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The have been various organization efforts and the is an overall roadmap. Ultimately all these have drifted off a bit as the complexity begins to fog where to prioritize efforts. The result is random and spontaneous contribution. It leads to very natural and artistic maps but they are slow to come to fruition. As I recall there is quite a bit of AI pathing done and many objectives are there so it's not just barren geometry. Yes those are some good options Sotha.

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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Sotha: this is probably too detailed and technical to discuss in this thread, but the building process has really been a mixture of different approaches; sometimes built area by area, and sometimes with tasks divided among multiple people. And again, some methods work for some and not for others. Nowadays, we are using yours (except layers are not being used since the number of people working on individual missions is, well, zero to two at a given moment).

 

Four people for a conversation is mostly a necessity: you have someone writing a script, two voice actors (often imitating specific AI voices to boot!), and someone who implements it in the map. If things go lucky, some of these functions can be merged, but that's just luck.

 

Please do not assume we have no strategy, that's just not correct. We have had multiple ones. What we don't have is sufficient manpower who aren't overwhelmed by RL (me, Angua) or burned out (some others), and a project coordinator (fortunately, this thread may just give us one). And the issue is, as you bring up yourself, when we brought new mappers on board, they often took time to familiarise themselves with the project, but afterwards, could not contribute for one reason or another. There has also been a concern (voiced by Springheel) that bringing in active mappers will slow down the pace of other mission releases and decrease the mod's overall visibility, which is something we respect.

 

That is, we have a plan, we are working, but it is slow going, and sometimes people can't participate as much as they would need to. E.g. I had a lot of IRL tasks, and now that they are done, I want to finish my non-campaign mission first. I really feel the need to release something since I haven't done it since 2011.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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So essentially you need just manpower. You simply can't do this only with 2 people without getting burned out. A dedicated coordinator is not top priority, since the bottleneck is simply the lack of people.

 

If you had a mission geometry ready with nothing else and 5-6 guys (one task category per mapper) with motivation (using their free mapping time only on this one mission and not mapping something else) I dare to say it would not take long to push the one mission into a ready state.

 

The problem is that this is not only a single one mission. You have to be able to flog the mappers to accomplish & execute all the other missions in the campaign with the same protocol. Even if one of the mappers stalls and drops out, the work load increases for the others drastically, increasing likeliness of further drop-outs. If the initial work load is light for the mappers, they are not so likely to drop out.

 

If the active team has now dwindled into 2 active people, you are in trouble. People will be unvilling to join the team because they fear their precious invested time will be wasted because the project dies with people's motivation and interest.

 

So, it seems, the first step is to ask more people to assist. If you get almost one guy per mapping category of the joint collaboration model, it wouldn't even be a large chore for an invidiual mapper!

 

People will not join if you are not specific what you need from them. Because of this a clear and concise plea for help would be the most effective way. "We have mission 1 of the campaign. We want to complete it! Need people for these tasks: [insert list]." Make sure people understand how they should work in order to satisfy the joint collaboration model.

 

People will be more likely to help if they understand what they are stepping into. Look at me, for instance, I read your posts and assumed you have no plan whatsoever. It is the signal. If it is not clear, people have to assume things. If there is a lot of uncertainty and vagueness, people are more likely to steer away.

 

If you have a clear cut list of tasks, you have some hope of getting help!

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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@Sotha, because I am at work I don't have the time to read your posts in full, but from what I have skimmed your over thinking it.

 

In a nutshell -

  1. Right now we just need a coordinator, who will look at the over all picture and direct as needed (New Horizon is looking into doing this, but hasn't confirmed yet)
  2. All of the maps are working missions that just need polish or some minor map work, (Melan, Myself and a few other mappers are mostly on-top of this)
  3. Said maps then just need linking to work as a campaign with relevant loading screens for each (some mission already have thier own loading screens) (above mappers are ontop of this)
  4. we need someone to make cut-scenes and someone to do the voicework for some scripted events and conversations. (we have already go some voice actors, we need the coordinator to lease with them)

Once steps 2-4 are done we will be much closer to having a working campaign WIP etc.

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@2: If mapping is really mostly done, I guess it would be the best to stick with the current mappers due to style and workflow.

 

@3: Are you talking about creating the relevant files needed, itemshop setup etc..?

 

@4: If you have the images/voice-overs creating a cutscene is not a problem. I would be happy to help with that and Sotha already demonstrated that he is able to do this.

 

I have some experience with video editing programs (a pro program under mac whichs name I forgot, Adobe Premiere under Windows and some freeware under linux).

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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  • @2: If mapping is really mostly done, I guess it would be the best to stick with the current mappers due to style and workflow.
  • @3: Are you talking about creating the relevant files needed, itemshop setup etc..?
  • @4: If you have the images/voice-overs creating a cutscene is not a problem. I would be happy to help with that and Sotha already demonstrated that he is able to do this.

I have some experience with video editing programs (a pro program under mac whichs name I forgot, Adobe Premiere under Windows and some freeware under linux).

  • Yes, but we will never turn away any extra help.
  • yes, exactly that plus a detail pass here and there.
  • we dont have the images and only some of the voice overs atm. the team would welcome your's and Sotha's help...!!!
  • And good man, are you familiar with the way most of the thief briefings and cutscenes are done? this is a good style to emulate.

Anyway we are getting off topic now, so I will ask Springheel to give you and Sotha perms to the campaign forum.

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Again I feel you are sending mixed and somewhat conflicting messages.

 

At any rate, I cannot commit myself into heavy working at present.

 

How are you planning to do the cutscenes? If

a ) something like LQD briefings is what you want and

b ) someone is using linux and can use Kdenlive,

 

I could donate the LQD briefing kdenlive project source files along with a brief instructions how to render them and how they are transformed into .roqs. You could possibly save some time by creating your cutscenes by modifying my LQD briefing source files. Not sure, tough kdenlive needs some work for a person to learn to use it. Once one masters it, it is brilliant!

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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I could donate the LQD briefing kdenlive project source files along with a brief instructions how to render them and how they are transformed into .roqs. You could possibly save some time by creating your cutscenes by modifying my LQD briefing source files. Not sure, tough kdenlive needs some work for a person to learn to use it. Once one masters it, it is brilliant!

I don't have the time to learn this myself, but who ever we get to help with the cutscene's Im sure they will appreciate this generous offer!

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And good man, are you familiar with the way most of the thief briefings and cutscenes are done? this is a good style to emulate

Are you talking about the briefings of the classical thief games?

plus a detail pass here and there.

I don't understand what *detail pass* means.

Yes, but we will never turn away any extra help.

Well, as detailing isn't one of my strength's I guess I can't offer much help here. But people keep telling me that my pathing is quite acceptable :smile:

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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  • Are you talking about the briefings of the classical thief games?
  • I don't understand what *detail pass* means.

  • Yes, the ones that look like they are a mixture of flash based animation of scrolled images..
  • Each time you "make a pass" over the map to add details is refered to as a detail pass.

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Yes, the ones that look like they are a mixture of flash based animation of scrolled images..

I knew how to do this with adobe premiere and will find out how to do this with the linux program I be using right now. :smile: Shouldn't be a big deal.

Each time you "make a pass" over the map to add details is refered to as a detail pass.

Thanks. My english is getting better and better :smile:

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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Yep,already noticed that. :smile:

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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  • 1 month later...

Absolutely awesome. I can't understand how I missed this project. I wish everyone who works on this the best of luck, sadly I'm too incompetent to contribute anything.

 

  • Yes, the ones that look like they are a mixture of flash based animation of scrolled images..

 

It's a shame I know nothing about making cutscenes, because I'd love to help out with that. I loved the cutscene style of the first two Thief games - not just the still images that are scrolling, but also the text lines and the blurred, dreamlike animations paired with the threatening industrial music. Just beautiful. To be honest, I really don't like the default cutscenes for The Dark Mod compared to the "original" ones.

 

 

And can I dare ask a question about this campaign from a consumer point of view? Is there a tutorial level planned? The introduction level, interwoven with the story line, is one important aspect that made The Dark Project superior than The Metal Age to me.

Edited by Nico A.
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TDM already has its one-off tutorial level included with every download, so I think players will (or should) break into Crucible knowing how to play. I wouldn't be surprised if Crucible ends up being made more difficult than other missions. There could be room for an "introduction" type level like in T2X, but the team is hard at work as it is, so if it wasn't planned, I doubt it will get made. Some TDM missions have had video briefings. There's also the option of adding flybys at the beginning of the level like in No Honor Among Thieves.

Edited by jaxa
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  • 2 months later...
Also any news on this front?

Not really. We can show any number of screenshots, but they will not be new, nor signify the campaign's release is estimably closer than at the latest news release. This is the simple truth. We have stalled, and that is mainly due to low manpower. T2X had more than 60 people working on it; our core team was never larger than about six or seven regular contributors, and nowadays it is mostly down to one or two people plinking away at some task. Plus burnout. Plus we have no people for certain tasks (like drawing and implementing the briefings). With this pace, any hope about an imminent release should be put aside and forgotten.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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Not really. We can show any number of screenshots, but they will not be new, nor signify the campaign's release is estimably closer than at the latest news release. This is the simple truth. We have stalled, and that is mainly due to low manpower. T2X had more than 60 people working on it; our core team was never larger than about six or seven regular contributors, and nowadays it is mostly down to one or two people plinking away at some task. Plus burnout. Plus we have no people for certain tasks (like drawing and implementing the briefings). With this pace, any hope about an imminent release should be put aside and forgotten.

 

That's sad news. Hopefully we should be be getting more talent in the community soon, with 2.0 released, and all that.

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The biggest one ATM is art.

  • We need a bunch of full-screen images for our briefings. Our briefings will use Thief's sepia style, with a mixture of screenshots, drawn images and mixtures of the two. We are aiming to cut down the workload by doing as much as possible with screenshots. We have reference images to work from, so the task would not be too hard for an experienced artist, but would prefer if a single person was doing the work for consistency.
  • We need a smaller number of colour images for cutscenes. Again, there are references.
  • Someone experienced enough in TDM briefing editing to assemble the package of images, spoken lines (already recorded) and soundtrack into a cohesive whole. The same goes for the cutscenes.
  • Someone who can whip up a few alt. skins (there is a very limited need for this).

Music is also welcome (we have some people on this front, but if you think you can do some looped tracks like we had in Thief... you can probably help us!).

 

Grayman is our project coordinator. I am absolutely too disorganised to handle task assignments and that kind of thing. Maybe he can tell more.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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