Jump to content
The Dark Mod Forums

Overhead Melee Animation Complaint


Ishtvan

Recommended Posts

Haven't been able to play the mod since the new melee animations were added, but I saw the overhead slash in Springheel's video here, at 2:38:

 

!

 

I don't know if it's changed since then, but if not, it's way too similar from the sideways slash (from your left to your right if you're facing them). It's more of a diagonal cut than a downward cut, which might be realistic-looking, but makes it too hard to read for those of us who like using the manual parry mode. It needs to be easy to read the directions of the attack right from the back-swing on. If you're watching their hand, it should be moving back and up over their shoulder right from the start, to distinguish it as much as possible from the side to side slash. This current back-swing goes sideways off to your left side. It might not look as cool to do a more differentiated back-swing for the downward cut, but it's so you can read it for gameplay purposes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On a related note, this comment is totally aeshtetic rather than gameplay related, but:

 

The new AI parry to defend aginst thrusts is really unrealistic. This is the one where they flip the whole sword over and parry a thrust with their sword pointed down at the floor. Sure, it looks more flashy, but no well-trained person would do that, because it leaves you in a terrible position to recover from. Your point is pointed down at the ground, making stabbing impossible, and your arm is turned over in such a way that you can't really generate any power on any counter-slashes. You could manage a slash to only one side, or an awkward downward cut that takes longer than normal, but those are the only options. Compare this to the old animation that was based on the classical foil parry #4, which leaves your point pointed toward your opponent's eye ready to stab, and your arm ready to slash in any direction. I know I'm being picky, but it ruins the immersion for me to see them doing flashy, impractical stage-fencing instead of actual realistic combat techniques.

 

The sabre parry depicted in the animation is called #2 or "seconde," and it's never used in modern sport competition because it is so awkward. It was originally for when you're on a horse and someone on the ground swings at your right leg. I guess it could be used standing if someone slashes at your right shin, but we're using it as a generic stabbing defense, which makes no sense. The majority of the time, you're trying to stab each other in the face or torso. Maybe the animation is supposed to depict a circular parry that sweeps down across the body? But that doesn't work with our "put it up and wait" system of AI parrying necessitated by the code; it would have to be timed correctly with the thrust to look right. So meh. :)

 

EDIT: See what happens when you post videos of new melee animations?? I complain about them. On a positive note, this one could be kept around in case we ever implement AI fighting you on horseback. :ph34r: ]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

These animations look ten times better than our old ones as far as I'm concerned. Realism hasn't been a big concern for me; the idea of fencing with longswords (let alone hammers or spiked clubs) seems farfetched to begin with. But I know Arcturus is itching to replace the combat animations, so you could always work with him to come up with something better.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My biggest complaint is that legs don't move at all. To look good whole body needs to be animated and not legs and upper part separately but with one animation. Yes I know that there are currently technical limitations. Also there should be some walking to the sides and back. Now they just stand in one place. Apart from that, animations are too mechanical. Making new animations won't be an easy task and I want to make new run and walk animations first so I am not even thinking about it.

It's only a model...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, some "jockeying" back and forth and side-stepping with the legs would help, but I understand it's difficult to modify the AI for this (particularly navigation, so they dont try to sdie-step into a wall or leap backwards off the edge of a cliff).

 

Don't get me wrong, the animations do look much better and more fluid overall. I just had one important complaint, that the AI overhead attack is too hard to distinguish from a sideways slash, which makes it much more difficult/frustrating for manual parry users. Is anyone using manual parry these days?

 

The other complaint is less important, that we changed our thrust parry from foil #4 to sabre #2. Granted, using any single parry for all thrusts will look a bit unrealistic, because thrusts can come in at so many angles, and also because in the current system, AI make the parry and wait, rather than moving in sync with a thrust as it comes in. My point is, it's always going to look a but off, but at least with the old thrust parry, you can see how it might intercept thrusts toward the head and body. What they are doing now is a parry that will block low slashes to their right side, which makes no sense for blocking thrusts to the torso/head.

 

Spring, you've done archery... how would you feel if an AI nocked 3 arrows at once and felled three separate opponents, or if they fired at you backwards over their shoulder with some bizarre trick shot? Because that's how I feel about parrying a thrust with parry #2. It's no more believable than if they did a spinning back-kick at me that somehow blocks a thrust. A lot of games try to make swordplay more theatrical to be exciting, but our guards aren't swashbuckling pirates; they are supposed to be well trained soldiers who would never needlessly point their weapon down at the ground.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

that the AI overhead attack is too hard to distinguish from a sideways slash, which makes it much more difficult/frustrating for manual parry users. Is anyone using manual parry these days?

 

I don't know. I haven't heard any complaints about that particular issue, but from what I've heard the majority of players seem to just reload rather than enter combat.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's the impression I get, too, which is a shame since we put in a difficulty slider. If people can't handle it, but don't want to reload all the time, they can just set it to medium. I probably should do this myself, because when I'm sneaking I'm not prepared for melee so it's much harder than when you're practicing it constantly fighting several people in a row. But somehow players don't like doing this because it admits weakness. :) I usually just try to fight and die.

 

EDIT: But we shouldn't make it even more frustrating by changing the overhead slash to be harder to read for people who use manual parry.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I don't have access to the original combat maya files, and can't import md5meshes, otherwise I could modify the overhead attack a bit. I don't have the skill to create decent combat animations, so it will have to wait until Arcturus has time or someone else steps up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know. I haven't heard any complaints about that particular issue, but from what I've heard the majority of players seem to just reload rather than enter combat.

 

Esp. if you are not allowed to kill anyoneon Expert, anyway.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess we might as well auto-reload whenever anyone gets into combat on Expert, then. Oh, wait, you can still parry or hit and take advantage of the AI's "flat footed" moment to run away, or wound your opponent until their health is low and they flee.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess we might as well auto-reload whenever anyone gets into combat on Expert, then. Oh, wait, you can still parry or hit and take advantage of the AI's "flat footed" moment to run away, or wound your opponent until their health is low and they flee.

 

I just meant to say that people are more likely to reload on Expert when a no-kill objective is active - I know I do, because the "run away and have all the AI trailing you" is as much a failure as trying to "almost kill your opponent" (because either he accidentily dies, I die, or the commotion draws every other AI). Trying the gamble and failing 90% of the time isn't fun for me, so I just reload to shorten the process. And a lot of people probably do the same (I don't know, I just guessed).

  • Like 1

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think anyone is arguing it shouldn't be done, but as I said above, I don't have the original files, and I can't make one from scratch, so we're dependent on other animators to do it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can confirm that it is not good gameplay-wise ingame after testing. I really can't tell the difference between the overhead and the side slash at combat speeds. After many repititions, I started to pick up a slight difference in the way they hold the non-weapon hand, but that is not good enough. I understand you don't have the source files Spring, but whenever anyone who does can get around to addressing this, it would be better if the hand went more distinctly up and back over the shoulder. It would be a shame for the latest release to needlessly make melee combat even more frustrating than it already is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It would be a shame for the latest release to needlessly make melee combat even more frustrating than it already is.

 

These animations have been out since 1.07, so it's not something new to this release. Noisycricket did them, but I don't think he's around anymore. At the moment, Arcturus is probably the only one with the skill to do combat animations, so he's the person to talk to about fixing them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay, whenever it can get done, on top of all the other stuff that needs to be done. I noticed something else: Is it just me or is the player's thrust animation slower on the recovery or cancel animation? It's slower than I remembered and now, I tend to not have time to parry after making a thrust attack, and feint attacks with the thrust don't work either. The rest of the player attacks are fine.

 

These haven't been changed in a while, the log says this:

 

Feb 26 2011, greebo: Merged changed from 1.04 release branch.

Jul 03, 2009, ishtvan: cut one frame off the end of cancel anims, blends into idle anyway

 

So what were the changes in the 1.04 release branch? Could the anims, particularly the thrust one, have gotten slower?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recent Status Updates

    • Petike the Taffer  »  DeTeEff

      I've updated the articles for your FMs and your author category at the wiki. Your newer nickname (DeTeEff) now comes first, and the one in parentheses is your older nickname (Fieldmedic). Just to avoid confusing people who played your FMs years ago and remember your older nickname. I've added a wiki article for your latest FM, Who Watches the Watcher?, as part of my current updating efforts. Unless I overlooked something, you have five different FMs so far.
      · 0 replies
    • Petike the Taffer

      I've finally managed to log in to The Dark Mod Wiki. I'm back in the saddle and before the holidays start in full, I'll be adding a few new FM articles and doing other updates. Written in Stone is already done.
      · 4 replies
    • nbohr1more

      TDM 15th Anniversary Contest is now active! Please declare your participation: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22413-the-dark-mod-15th-anniversary-contest-entry-thread/
       
      · 0 replies
    • JackFarmer

      @TheUnbeholden
      You cannot receive PMs. Could you please be so kind and check your mailbox if it is full (or maybe you switched off the function)?
      · 1 reply
    • OrbWeaver

      I like the new frob highlight but it would nice if it was less "flickery" while moving over objects (especially barred metal doors).
      · 4 replies
×
×
  • Create New...