The lantern

[Tels]

That could apply to a lot of lights used in the mod in fact. Having bright lights with a small radius and a sharp falloff is actually a performance optimisation, to reduce the amount of lights that hit surfaces. In real life all lights have a quadratic falloff (similar to the "expfalloff" light texture), which means they stretch a long way but are much dimmer at long distances.

 

Since the lantern is a single light which is rarely used, there probably would be no performance issues with having a large radius and the expfalloff texture to increase realism.

 

Huh? I am not sure I can follow this. The radius determienes where the light hits and that influences the performance. The "falloff" in D3 is just a texture, and it is rendered the same wether the falloff image is white or black, just the result on the screen is different.

 

So if you have 300 units with a smooth falloff, and a 500 unit with a sharper falloff that ends at 300 units, you are actually having worse performance - more things are lit with the same light.

 

I guess you meant to say that a 300 unit light with a hard falloff hits less surfaces than a 500 unit light with a smooth falloff (that is already pretty dark at 300 units), but I am not sure this is really the case.

 

In any event, our lantern has a pretty small radius, increasing this will always make performance "worse" (in praxis not that much, tho).

 

Edit: Or is this what you actually said?

 

-----------------------------

What I'd like to see changed is that if you crawl through some ducts, the lantern clips into the geometry, making your area go dark.

 

http://bugs.angua.at/view.php?id=2079

 

There is also this:

 

http://bugs.angua.at/view.php?id=2901

[OrbWeaver]

I guess you meant to say that a 300 unit light with a hard falloff hits less surfaces than a 500 unit light with a smooth falloff (that is already pretty dark at 300 units)

 

Right. Since the performance depends on the actual light radii, not the "effective illumination" provided by the light falloff texture, the motivation is to keep the lights as small as possible while maximising the amount of light within their radius, which results in the regular falloff textures being full brightness for most of the distance and then a short transition to black at the edge.

 

If you wanted to do everything realistically, your 300-unit biground light might have to become a 900-unit light with a quadratic falloff texture, which would intersect a lot more surfaces but only provide useful illumination quite near to its centre.

[Tels]

Ah, ok, that's what I know then Of course, sometimes a smoother works better. The original D3 levels all had a lot of lights placed so that their fall-off-edge touches a wall, so they got the maximum out of the light textures.

[TheUnbeholden]

I always considered the lantern to be as good as it can be. But you have a good point! I support the idea of increasing its radius (it will probably need some other adjustments to make this work though)

 

Agreed, Lantern is supposed to have a much more vibrant light because it can have oil instead of a candle.... it definitely should have a larger light radius than a simple candle. Then I might actually use it to navigate...

 

I also think you should be able to drop it... its weird how you can drop the spyglass but not the Lantern... when theres actually good reason for dropping it, to use it as a portable lightsource like if your in a big cave and want to light entrance up for instance. Or other key location that you need to keep your eye on.

Edited April 23, 2012 by TheUnbeholden

[Briareos H]

I think I'm going to put together a small test map with different lantern styles that were proposed in this thread in order to find different settings that work well.

That way we could have an alternative -- and hopefully better -- tool that could be included at the missions' authors discretion.

It's my first attempt at DarkRadiant so uh... don't expect anything today :/

Edited April 23, 2012 by Briareos H

[Bikerdude]

sounds good BH!

[Springheel]

Agreed, Lantern is supposed to have a much more vibrant light because it can have oil instead of a candle.... it definitely should have a larger light radius than a simple candle

 

The lantern is a thief's tool. In most situations he isn't going to want to carry around a "vibrant light".

 

I also think you should be able to drop it

 

Can't you? I remember discussing that possibility years ago and I thought we decided to make it droppable.

[jay pettitt]

Can you? Best thing for it I reckon.

 

Talking of candles, can they be lit as well as extinguished? (as in do you carry matches rather than can you go and find something else that is afire to go and light them on)

 

Only candles are oodles more fun than the stealth lantern of slight, ineffectual murk. And if they can be lit (can they?) then they could become a reliable, portable light source in the game. Also you can position them where they're useful, rather than the lantern which seems to emit light from under your kilt only, and thus can't actually illuminate anything at eye level.

 

Jay doesn't love the lantern.

[Briareos H]

Can't you? I remember discussing that possibility years ago and I thought we decided to make it droppable.

 

Since I'm up to my ears in learning how to script entities, I have the answer right in front of my eyes:

"inv_droppable" "0"

[New Horizon]

Agreed, Lantern is supposed to have a much more vibrant light

 

No it isn't. It's a very tiny hooded lantern that fits on the players belt. It's not a full sized lantern. It would have nowhere near the light radius of a regular hooded lantern.

[jay pettitt]

Since I'm up to my ears in learning how to script entities...

 

You couldn't be a sweetie and script up some relightable candle code could you (so pressing the 'use' key extinguishes them as normal, but then would also relight them if they're out). I can provide a match/tinder strike sound effect...

 

---edit---

thinking on, it'd be super nice if it turned itself the right way up too.

Edited April 23, 2012 by jay pettitt

[Xarg]

You could try asking Fidcal if you can reuse his slow match from Heart of Lone Salvation. That said, since a magically always lit match is a bit weird, I wonder if there would be a way to make it make that match striking sound effect when you drop it from inventory to hand, as if you'd just lit it..

Edited April 23, 2012 by Xarg

[Serpentine]

Yeah, the lantern is plenty bright as is, increasing that would be mad.

[AluminumHaste]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that we already have the ability to relight items in the code that players could probably use without much work:

 

[Tels]

You couldn't be a sweetie and script up some relightable candle code could you (so pressing the 'use' key extinguishes them as normal, but then would also relight them if they're out). I can provide a match/tinder strike sound effect...

 

---edit---

thinking on, it'd be super nice if it turned itself the right way up too.

 

The entire POINT of having a tiny lamp which you can turn on/off at will, and slightly-brighter candles that you can only light on other fires is that they are DIFFERENT and don't allow everything in one package. Different tools for different purposes and for different types of game play.

 

What you people are essentially asking for is "convience". Oh wouldn't it be cool if the lantern was brighter, emitted a tone when you need to distract a guard, you could lit candles at will, they'd turn upright at a button press, and of course, you can change their color, brightness and stick them to the wall. And the player gets a pony, too.

 

I don't quite see why we should implement all these - because the next complaint would be that the game is now so easy and there are no challanges at all, and who uses lantern/candle, when you have a candle/lantern and both behave identical, anyway?

[Tels]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that we already have the ability to relight items in the code that players could probably use without much work:

 

Because the player is supposed to find another fire source to be able to religth a flame. (Or carry a slow match, if the map author thinks this is nec.).

[grayman]

I don't quite see why we should implement all these - because the next complaint would be that the game is now so easy and there are no challanges at all, and who uses lantern/candle, when you have a candle/lantern and both behave identical, anyway?

 

J'agree.

[Xarg]

I'll be honest, the lantern is reasonably useless as it is (a lot of it is due to clipping), and part of that is the.. very bright but very short light range.. it's like it's powered by the souls of rock musicians who became stars then burned out quickly.

[jay pettitt]

The entire POINT of having a tiny lamp which you can turn on/off at will, and slightly-brighter candles that you can only light on other fires is that they are DIFFERENT and don't allow everything in one package. Different tools for different purposes and for different types of game play.

 

What'd be nice is a source of portable light that could be used as a source of portable light.

 

Candles work for that - it's really nice that you can pick them up, take them with you and use them to light up a tunnel or to help search a dark area - but from the point of view of someone racing to get their mission finished in time for the Beginners Contest deadline the fact that the player could find themselves without light because they've gone and extinguished everything reasonably nearby means that candles are decoration, rather than something with high gameplay value. I think that's a shame and an opportunity lost.

 

The lantern doesn't function as a source of portable light - it doesn't cast light far enough to illuminate anything, and if you get close to anything it clips. And even if it did I'd be inclined not to include it in a players' default loadout because I think candles are more fun. The fact that you can use candles makes me smile - the lantern doesn't. Pressing 'L' isn't gameplay, it's a crutch.

 

I don't quite see why we should implement all these - because the next complaint would be that the game is now so easy and there are no challanges at all, and who uses lantern/candle, when you have a candle/lantern and both behave identical, anyway?

 

There's no reason why you should - although you might like to. however if it's possible for me to do with or without help I will, because I think that's the best experience I can give the folk who might like to download and play the mission that I'm trying to craft.

 

Granted, it would make the lantern pretty much redundant. But I tend to sit in the less is more camp - so I think cutting stuff out is a good thing. I'd rather give players less bits, but let them do more with them.

Edited April 23, 2012 by jay pettitt

[Springheel]

I think the slow-burning matchstick is for exactly that kind of situation.

[jay pettitt]

I think the slow burning matchstick is for making people wonder how the thing is supposed to work and scuttle to the forums to be told that they need to 'drop it into their hands'. Just saying.

 

But it is a possibility and it was an ingenious idea. Just not as user friendly as a candles you can relight as well as extinguish with a press of the use button and arguably another bit of inventory clutter.

[Xarg]

It seems easier to implement (it already exists), finding a way to make it make a scratching noise when dropping it into your hands might be a bit tougher, though I imagine it's quite possible. The biggest holdups I can see would be integrating it into the core mod, and educating people on it's use.

[jay pettitt]

That's the same as anything though. Relightable candles have been on my to-do list for a while - and even though in theory they're super simple, the fact that it's slightly different to all the other candles in TDM ever means that its doomed to failure for that very reason.

 

It's a shame not to make use of the fact that candles can be lit by getting them within fondling distance with other flames 'cos that's quite clever - but the fact that half the point of the game is to extinguish as many flames as possible means that in the cold light of day, I reckon that feature is novelty rather than substance. If you end up having to walk far to find a source of ignition, that's sorta sucky.

 

It's not a huge loss if the slow burn match has no strike sound. Though you'd want that when you use the thing, not when you drop it (into your hands) before you can use it (which is possibly easier to implement(?))

 

Anyhow, if I can I shall try and get some relightable candles in my mission - and if they suck we'll find out. If they're awesome fun then perhaps folk will warm to them.

 

I intend to reinvent fruit too.

Edited April 23, 2012 by jay pettitt

[grayman]

It's not a huge loss if the slow burn match has no strike sound.

 

The slow match is not a regular match. It's lit before you start the mission and stays lit, so it shouldn't have a striking sound each time you use it. It's different than the tinderbox the AI use to relight lights.

 

Very popular on men-o-war, where you needed to light cannon fuses w/o relying on unreliable flints or dangerous open flames.

[Tels]

That's the same as anything though. Relightable candles have been on my to-do list for a while - and even though in theory they're super simple, the fact that it's slightly different to all the other candles in TDM ever means that its doomed to failure for that very reason.

 

It's a shame not to make use of the fact that candles can be lit by getting them within fondling distance with other flames 'cos that's quite clever - but the fact that half the point of the game is to extinguish as many flames as possible means that in the cold light of day, I reckon that feature is novelty rather than substance. If you end up having to walk far to find a source of ignition, that's sorta sucky.

 

I don't know about you, but I certainly don't extinguish every flame I see. Maybe you should revise your style of play?

 

(In other words, it is exactly this challenge "you might need to go into the dark cellar/sewer, and need a candle, and need to find a light source, so you better leave at least one burning" which is why the candles are not relightable without a light source. Simply removing that challange just because you don't like it doesn't strike me as particular useful).

 

Anyhow, if I can I shall try and get some relightable candles in my mission - and if they suck we'll find out. If they're awesome fun then perhaps folk will warm to them.

 

I intend to reinvent fruit too.

 

Not to sound rude but maybe you should start your own "Not Quite The Dark Mod", then? I don't mind if mappers get creative, but if they start changing the core mechanics of the mod willy-nilly, they will confuse players quite a bit. What's next, walking on water?

 

(In other words, the food is exactly that way, that you can't carry 100 fruits with you, and get healed by then 100 points whenever you need it. Healing potions are for that, and they are rare (and expensive!). The food is the challenge ("need to sneak back into kitchen, get a healing because you are near dead"), and again, removing that challange isn't what I'd like to see).