Fan Mission: In remembrance of him (by RPGista)

[RPGista]

Both you guys - point taken. And Sotha's maps will surely be a testament to what great gameplay design can do; The Beleaguered Fence is one of my favourite missions, robust AI placement all around, interesting space structure, changes in rythim during the mission... Brilliant work. Will be looking foward to your future creations, eargerly.

 

I might have time to look into the mission in the weekend, so if anyone has issues to report, this would be the right time.

 

Im particularly interested in knowing if anyone else got Grayman's problem of having the wife, inside the first (red brick) house, staying put in front of the sitting man after their conversation - she should get out of the room after it (the whole conversation should take about 20-30 seconds, then she'll leave).

[ungoliant]

I had no problems with that scene. In fact I even closed the door behind them while they were chatting. I thought it was just a bunch of barks strung together, I paid no attention to it. She still left the room and started wandering around, getting in my damn way. I knocked her ass out with gusto.

[BlueSkyBullet]

Yeah, I didn't experience the problem grayman had... I heard her "haughtiness"... and, therefore and thence, thusly and whence, I too, had no qualms knocking her out after she started moving about and getting in my way of things.

 

Although Sotha retiring from mission making would surely be a shame, I wouldnt say the same about me.

 

I would say the same.

 

The mission you made really was quite enjoyable. If there are things about the process you dread going through again, then perhaps you needn't do those particular things? I think the essentials (gameplay, a bit {or a lot! yes! yes!} of story, & an inherent, stylish visual cohesiveness) are something you understand and enjoy?

 

...

 

(what follows between these ellipses is not directed at you or anyone in particular but just a bit of a rant that sort of fits here)

 

Much of the rest (bells and baubles) is usually not only unnecessary and burdensome on the creator but actually, in the end, a burden on the system. I think maybe there is too much over-reaching, over-stretching over-ambition going on. Not every mission needs to be a masterpiece of expansive, detailed, epic saga. The limits do not need to be pushed! TDM affords plenty of opportunity for great missions with out having to constantly try and break it's goddamned back.

 

...

 

You were under time constraints... and in a competition... and it was also an every-single-step-along-the-way-is-a-study kind of thing. Next time can be purely at your own pace, with nothing to prove, and you've got heaps of know-how now!

Edited April 28, 2012 by BlueSkyBullet

[RPGista]

Damn, you guys are cold... I hope you decided to take out the gang or they will have overun the house by now and the couple never had a chance to escape or defend themselves, being in coma as you left them! Joking.

 

BlueSky - in a sense, I agree completely (thanks for the compliments and incentive, by the way); you do not need to twist TDM and/or try to get out of its offered world of choices, because the basic package (stealth and lootable site explorations) already allows for a rewarding gaming experience. But to tell you the truth, I havent seen that much experimenting with TDM, the bolder case was Winter Harvest as far as I know.

 

I think it comes down a lot of the times to a certain particular "vision" you as an author wants to express in the map, something you believe is unique, THATs what keeps you trying and also what keeps you from achieving (because its mostly impossible to put your imagination into Dark Radiant without some cold process of compromise and simplification). Im just starting to play the other two missions, so I cant speak for their ambitions, but if you think about mine, there were a couple of events inside the map that were absolutely essential to convey the "experience" that I had imagined for this little fantasy world, and you can safely say they took a disproportional amount of time and effort to be learnt and implemented. It wasnt a naiive choice though, Im not that fanatic about Thief gameplay to tell you the truth - I like it, but I would always prefer to play a mission with strong storytelling over a mission with really challenging stealth factor.

 

Considering I didnt have any particular idea how to create an interesting challenge in that kind of game (with already many interesting missions in that department from guys like Sotha and Fidcal), it seemed natural for me to tend to a mission based mostly on graphic storytelling. So I guess you could say I see missions more as organic things that react to the player and are built around him, instead of complex environments that you have to learn and work inside of. Im always expecting variations in theme and style, more "assassination" missions, or rescuing, or with a radical twist before the climax. Anyway, it was indeed a very fulfilling experience to be able to get something like that built and having loads of people playing it. I recommend it to everyone (putting their own imagination in a "physical" form like that).

Edited April 28, 2012 by RPGista

[BlueSkyBullet]

Oh, by the way, I've been meaning to mention this since I think I might have had a different experience than everyone else:

 

 

The guys sitting at the end of the 1st road you are set upon (continuing through the gate/door at the very opening? There are 2 of them camping by a fire. At one point an eye-patched guy comes from around the corner past them, he was hostile without provocation, I found out. I had to dispatch of him before finding out what a lumpen lump he was... que sera sera to him and all that; but the 2 guys camping? They were not hostile to me at all. I didn't sneak around them. I approached them and they left me alone and so I left them alone.

 

Were they meant to be part of the gang? They might have been meant to be a lookout for the hideout around the bend there, but I didn't experience that with them. I went down, approached them, tested if I might frob/talk to them. No. But no aggression either. The hoods around the corner in the hideout, them I knew were trouble and them I took out gladly. But the 2 guys camping on the street were alright by me and I was alright by them.

 

 

 

Is that the way it was meant to be? Because that added to my enjoyment actually.

[RPGista]

 

Yes, they are meant to be reluctant peasants who are just minding their own business - they know the thieves are there but would rather not mess with them (the thieves, if you killed and read the letter the walking thug is carrying, are camping and waiting for some reinforcements before they actually make their move); you are supposed to be able to "talk" to the peasant standing up (the other one will ignore you), if you aproach him from the front, he'll greet you. You might have not heard it because when he is alerted, he becomes irresponsive.

 

They will get agressive towards you only if you invade the last house next to them (I would have made the factory that way too, but that would be too taxing/confusing to the player), or if you scare the lady/merchant away; they'll run towards their loyal workers and "recruit" them to their aid, from then on they'll be enemies.

 

This is quite tricky on expert as you cant kill them (you should be able to as they are not "harmless" anymore, but I wasnt able to dynamicly change their teams, only the relation of their team to yours, during the game, so they are still protected by the objective regardless).

 

[Thiefette]

Oh, by the way, I've been meaning to mention this since I think I might have had a different experience than everyone else:

 

 

The guys sitting at the end of the 1st road you are set upon (continuing through the gate/door at the very opening? There are 2 of them camping by a fire. At one point an eye-patched guy comes from around the corner past them, he was hostile without provocation, I found out. I had to dispatch of him before finding out what a lumpen lump he was... que sera sera to him and all that; but the 2 guys camping? They were not hostile to me at all. I didn't sneak around them. I approached them and they left me alone and so I left them alone.

 

Were they meant to be part of the gang? They might have been meant to be a lookout for the hideout around the bend there, but I didn't experience that with them. I went down, approached them, tested if I might frob/talk to them. No. But no aggression either. The hoods around the corner in the hideout, them I knew were trouble and them I took out gladly. But the 2 guys camping on the street were alright by me and I was alright by them.

 

 

 

Is that the way it was meant to be? Because that added to my enjoyment actually.

They come after you if you

 

try to get into the last door beside them. You could do what I did and create your own darkness first and then only one comes after you. He can be dodged and when he stops looking for you you can KO him. Then you can get the other one. (I can't remember if there was no KO's on the hardest difficulty. If so then this wouldn't work)

 

[raymeld]

Given up on this one already I'm afraid.

Just cannot get out of the area with the barn/ second fire / archer and two thugs in the barn.Maybe it's my computer being a bit slow and the old hands not quick enough but unable to jump and catch on to anything.Can't get up old house stairs , jump to opposite wall , up to balcony , nothing

So goodbye mission , will await next one , maybe just not my sort of mission. Must be just me I know but bleddy frustrating all the same spending more than an hour trying to get out of one area.What's wrong with the good old rope arrows anyway?Nil points from me on this one , will stick to the good old type like Theo's and the lastest two excellent newbie missions.Rant over !

Edited April 30, 2012 by raymeld

[RPGista]

Raymeld -

 

Route 1 (through the derelict building): http://youtu.be/t8g67kLt3q0

 

Route 2 (through the couple's kitchen): http://youtu.be/PE9xaGfnaZ4

 

Reading the first post can help you further.

Edited April 30, 2012 by RPGista

[raymeld]

Thank you RPG , I've obviously missing big time that you can move along that crack in the wall ( first video ) like that. Sorry for venting my frustration ( over an hour of jumping and cyber injuries was to blame). I promise to try again . .

Edited April 30, 2012 by raymeld

[RPGista]

Good luck. If you get to a cemetery, your good to go, no more jumping from then on.

[Sotha]

Good luck. If you get to a cemetery, your good to go, no more jumping from then on.

 

 

 

No really, raymeld DO NOT read this spoiler!

 

 

@RPGista:

You evil LIAR!

 

 

 

 

[fllood]

What a impressive mission!

Your first one? Even more impressive. Really!!

 

My impressions in detail:

 

Visual & Sound *****

 

Visuals are awesome! From lighting ... to the smoothly patched geometry and very interesting horizontal and vertical architectures ... to the very individual and realistic inner rooms ... texture choices ... and a lot of attention to detail:

Full mind-blowing stars from me!

Also perfect audio choices and placements!

 

Gameplay ***

 

The perfect visuals and audio unfortunately are spoiled by gameplay.

 

With such beautiful architecture I really begged for finding some rope arrow. And even only to rope myself to one of the open windows and finding some treasures in one or another attic room. That would have added much to the gameplay. Adding some opportunity for tools in general. Removing all tools is OK for this type of mission. And that do not decrease my opinion or my vote! It is the lack the tools in recent FM's generally - moreover the need to cleverly use them to help progress. It seam to become a standard than an exception to have and needing few or no player tools in many recent FMs:

Alongside to the missed rope arrow opportunities your mission had no torches to distinguish, no lood floor surfaces to cross silently, even a spy glass which would have been handy for the places and riddles to explore. I really think adding some gameplay usage for water and rope arrows would have added to my fun.

 

The same go for a loot objective. There wasn't much to loot for. Which also may be realistic for the type of story. But looting is always fun. And okay making it optional. But even in such kind of mission I would have liked a loot objective. At least on expert with perhaps some extra treasures hidden for the loot loving people. That even would not cross the setting or story.

 

Hostile AI could have been more of a challenge, they haven't been any even on Expert.

 

That all personal preferences of course.

 

Is there a way into the room behind the fence at the cemetery? If a player can look into a lush decorated room he should be able to enter is somehow. Probably I just didn't find the way to do so. But if there is no way into that room that feels like being a mice looking at a cheese under a glass

 

The really frustration moments came with the "platforming" part. Sure, I know this FM include some jump riddles by intention. But even I figured what to do and where to go I failed the platforming part again and again to the point I did no-cliped this part.

 

So I would have tended to give tolerable stars for gamplay if I wasn't impressed by the very excellent final at the church. That hit me by surprise. Excellent how you set it. Thumbs up for that!

 

All in all giving three stars.

 

Story ****

 

The intro screens are beautifully done. I liked the ingame texts and story with the

merchant family, their fabric and the gang. And stroy with the zombie and priest in the church.

Nothing too fancy but staged very well for a small mission and using it's possibilities.

 

Excellent accomplishment: Four Stars.

 

 

Thanks for your first FM RPGista! I'm much looking forward for your next

Edited April 30, 2012 by fllood

[RPGista]

Flood - Thank you very much for the detailed review, for taking the time and for expressing your opinions so thoroughly! This is really awesome to know. Im glad you enjoyed the mission, the little surprises, and the atmosphere of it.

 

Tha architecture was of course a big part of it for me, to create a detailed world that felt like you should touch it and felt natural to be in - thats how the "plataform" section should be, for me, a part of interacting with a complex world geometry, rather than just going around a set of urban "corridors". I understand that many are finding it frustrating. It actually comes as a surprise for me overall because Im not even good at mantling (barely made it through the training section in the tutorial mission), but I guess it just isnt how people are used to play... Another thing that often surprises me is when I read about players who associate being spotted/discovered by an AI as instant fail - I never do that, I always deal with the consequences and only load if Im killed or if it clearly breaks the map; if I fall when trying to get to the apartment, on that fireplace square in my map, I just draw my sword and let the archer have it, then try again; if Im heard when clearing the debris before trying to climb the stairs inside the barn, I just go to war with the two thieves in there; most of the situations in my map were thought like that, if you get discovered, someone will call for help and your going to have problems, but there's no failling because of that, there is never a "dont be seen" objective mentality for me.

 

The equipment point is a very valid one, though I promise you it wasnt meant as anything in itself. The map was supposed to be inside a unspecific fantasy period, not necessarily inside TDM universe. Though I actually slipped a not well known city name in there from the tdm world, and you can clearly see that the priest is a "builder", the first was simply a slip of mind, and the second a necessity; the priest should be able to defend himself, the only clerical models available are of "builders" and their hammers, so i couldnt escape from that. You'll notice no mention of the religion anywhere though. So the player here is not the Thief guy, just a nameless hero in a gothic/medieval fantasy world. There are no tools of the trade besides the lockpicks (though you do get the spyglass on easy, which is not "easy", just gives you a few more items to find) because it is supposed to be a sober realistic world, without any knowledge of fancy steampunk equipment; that was all I meant.

 

Im glad you liked the story and theme, it was also supposed to have a sad tone, with diffuse characters that are not necessarily bad/villains. But it seems to me you missed one readable, because you werent able to enter the priest house! Thats the house with the gated door - of course you can go inside, you just have to open the gate first (the problem being that it is hard to tell when it is highlighted - its better just to face it dead on, and aim for the steel bars, not the space between them). There are a couple of spaces there for you to see too, I like that house...

 

Hope you will try the aleternative route to the one you took the get to the church (Im assuming the derelict building) and enter the priest chambers this time.

 

 

 

And hahaha, dont listen to Sotha, raymeld, he's joking! No more "obstacles" after you reach the churchyard, promess.

[prjames]

Impressive mission. While the plot is not my cup of tea, it was great architecture and great technically.

 

Regarding platforming - I found Route 1 but once I [spoiler}reached the area in the building with the abyss below after jumping the area with the debris below, I didn't believe I could cross the area with the abyss below.

 

 

I figured out I could cross

 

the 1 cm-wide ledge

 

by accident, when I was being chased by one of the guys in the barn and out the window of the barn. Once I realized that, I had no trouble with the rest of Route 2

 

the pegs sticking out and frobbable window were pretty obvious

 

and used that to reach the church.

 

I believe technically

 

the "dim the lights" effect when you enter the crypt was the best effect in the mission. Also, the second time through, I ran back upstairs as soon as the screaming effects started and they continued at full volume, even though I had ran all the way back to the cemetary.

.

 

I think because I'm not a ghoster (my normal gameplay is "everyone wakes up with a headache tonight" both here and in T2 ), I found the mission easier.

 

Great mission!

 

- prjames

[RPGista]

Thanks, glad you liked it. Those sounds should have quite a reach (so you can hear them even from outside the crypt), but I dont remember setting them to global or anything like that (what would explain you hearing them without any loss)... Should take a look. Also, seems you and some others are crossing the "1cm wide ledge" but thats just something I overlooked. The TDM character can unrealistically walk over very thin solids, and I forgot to make that detail non-solid. You can easily jump from the balcony to the derelict building cornice though. And you might be the first one to have successfully reached route 2 in your first playthrough.

Edited May 5, 2012 by RPGista

[raymeld]

I do have a problem with this sort of mission because one I have a hand problem which slows me down two because my computer is a bit on the slow side I think or at least I get a bit of lag with some missions. Therefore , I probably don't appreciate these type of missions as much as I should because of the jumping / climbing aspects and prefer the slinking in the shadows type. I had

great problems because of this with that part in the courtyard for a start which initially put me off a bit.

For some reason ( must have missed the correct route/entry ) I couldn't

get into the priest's quarters without noclipping which I did out of curiosity.

So all in all I probably got a bit more frustrated than most. I don't know whether there was a bit more you could explore in the mission

above the row of houses before you get to the two thieves by the first fire there seemed as if there might be if it was possible to get up there.

All in all , I very much enjoyed it in bits , and thought it was excellent for a first attempt and certainly different from the normal run of the mill missions. Thank you RPG.

Edited May 6, 2012 by raymeld

[quakis]

Hey RPGista, congrats on the release. Reviewed this mission over at my site which you can find here.

[RPGista]

Raymeld - sorry to hear about the problems, glad you were able to enjoy it somewhat.

 

Quakis - That was a pretty interesting read, thanks for taking the time to writte a review (I see some amusing maps in your blog for old favourite games, will be sure to come back).

[raymeld]

RPG no worries , just me , as a first mission I thought it was great given MY limitations and when I've more time I'll give it another go from scratch.

[Xarg]

I loved this mission. Could write a big ol' wall-o-text, but I think the others have covered it anyway. Loved the intro pictures. The visuals, were great. The "parkour", if you want to call it that, was reasonable. Last, but not least

 

 

 

Even with a sword out, I experienced an Amnesia style level of creepyness under the church, got goosebumps and the hair stood up on my neck. Seriously, that was creepy as hell... loved it!

 

 

 

On another note, your intro read a lot like a graphic novel (obviously, having an entire game installed to read a graphic novel is a bit much), and I really wonder how much further it can be taken.. I wonder if it's eventually possible to insert another piece like that later in a mission? Achieve a somewhat Max Payne-esque style of storytelling, without the obnoxious level loading... (thinking about it, campaign support would make this less of an issue).

[RPGista]

Xarg - Thanks, glad you liked the mission and some of the effects in there. The crypt took a lot of time to work properly, its great knowing some of you guys had the intended experience. I've never played Max Payne, but your idea sure is interesting to me. The initial plan was to have an outro sequence like the briefing one, with the hero coming back to the lady's room, she would be asleep and he would just place the ring next to her, saying something like she could never know about what really happened that night, that would be the way to end the mission; but we couldnt find a way to put it there, and I had no more time to be experimenting with stuff at that point. Having pauses in the game for "cinematics" in that style of storytelling (graphic novel, which I think works in this game, its basicly an illustrated "readable") would be something I would be certainly interested in doing more, if I knew how.

Edited May 12, 2012 by RPGista

[pwl]

Thank you RPGifta for a great mission!! I had a little trouble finding the proper way to get across the very deep alley but other than that I had a great time.. Looking forward to many more from you!!

[Xarg]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56LEzKVhVyE

 

This should give you an idea what I meant with the Max Payne reference. Interesting possibilities..

[Midnight]

I really enjoyed this fm, the architecture was wonderful, probably the most 'real' setting I've encountered yet in TDM. I also appreciated the story, enjoyed reading the extract in the library. Probably my favourite bit was getting busted trying to pick the door by the two peasants and leaping through the gap in the wall to make a quick escape (and being left with nearly zero health after falling into the courtyard).

 

I did have trouble with the platforming puzzle though, until I saw the route walkthrough posted earlier. I love the feeling of accomplishment you get when you use agility to get to hard to reach places, and this mission definitely had a feeling of exploration, but maybe it was a little too much. My feeling is that the main route should be fairly straightforward, and the harder platforming puzzles should be reserved for Easter egg type areas that only the most adventurous players would experience.

 

Awesome mission though, very high quality with great attention to detail. Hopefully it won't be your last, the different play style was very satisfying and would be even better in a larger mission of a similar style.

Edited May 21, 2012 by Midnight