Blackjacking -- still too difficult?

[fibanocci]

An issue nobody complains about is not really an issue.

Sure?

http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132046

[Tels]

Sure?

http://www.ttlg.com/...ad.php?t=132046

 

That thread is from 13th May 2010 03:09. The blackjacking has been adjusted since then.

 

Also, if you make blackjcking easy for newbies, then it will be too easy for everyone else, including the newb who has played a few missions and practised it. (That people expect to be 100% good at blackjacking without any praxis whatsoever astonishes me)

[RPGista]

We should have an easy-to-access blackjack trainer/tutorial to help new people grasp the basics of blackjacking.

 

There is indeed a trainer map just for blackjack practise (from Fidcal I think):

 

http://www.thedarkmo...ndetails/?id=19

 

http://www.ttlg.com/...ad.php?t=132601

 

A simple test will show the most of the surfaces allow you to simply walk up all the way to the AI and KO them (except metal, tiles and gravel). Walking AI is trickier because you need to make more sound while you try to reach them, thats why you can also train "ambushing" which is to wait for them to pass and immediately follow, KOing after a short pursuit.

Edited September 15, 2012 by RPGista

[fibanocci]

Also, if you make blackjcking easy for newbies, then it will be too easy for everyone else, including the newb who has played a few missions and practised it.

I'm talking about the easiest settings. Experienced player may choose harder settings

(That people expect to be 100% good at blackjacking without any praxis whatsoever astonishes me)

Nobody's expecting this

 

Make the blackjacking thingy as hard as in Thief, that's suitable for beginners. Do you remember the first time playing Thief? Blackjacking was a thrilling moment.

[Sotha]

Shall I go ahead and make one then? recommendations for which mission to use though...

 

In my personal view, your mapping skills are better used in other, more important, tasks.

 

Anyone of the mapper newcomers could make a simple 'blackjack everyone' few room FM. What a great and easy way to learn DR!

[Springheel]

I'm talking about the easiest settings. Experienced player may choose harder settings

 

Are you talking about something similar to the combat and lockpicking settings? How would you propose it work on easier settings? Do you think players should be able to KO a guard by hitting them on the foot like in T1 & 2?

[fibanocci]

Are you talking about something similar to the combat and lockpicking settings?

Exactly

How would you propose it work on easier settings?

I don't know. Maybe modified guards which aren't that sensitive?

Do you think players should be able to KO a guard by hitting them on the foot like in T1 & 2?

I used to hit Kurshocks in T3 on a toe, they keep falling

And yes, why not?

 

You keep on discussing attracting-people-to-TDM. The most effective measure is to give new players an easy access to the gameplay in TDM. Blackjacking is a pretty big hurdle for them.

[Springheel]

I don't know. Maybe modified guards which aren't that sensitive?

 

I don't know what you mean by "sensitive".

 

And yes, why not?

 

Well, because I can't think of any justification for knocking a guard unconscious by hitting him in the toe. That seems rather silly to me.

 

What about auto-raising the arm, like TDS? That was universally hated, IIRC, but it was specifically added to, as you say, "give new players an easy access to the gameplay".

 

I'm not entirely unsympathetic to the argument that TDM needs to be easier for newbies, but at the same time I don't want it to suffer from the "dumbing down" most modern games suffer from.

[ECHELON]

i don't think blackjacking is hard. the easiest way to blackjack it to walk upright and 90% you will able to reach the back of the enemy without him noticing.

 

p.s. i finished all the missions i've played blackjacking all the enemies. No dead one, except for objective.

Edited September 15, 2012 by ECHELON

[RPGista]

Sotha and Bikerdude: I just linked above to an already existing Blakcjack Trainer map, that lets you test just how much you can get away with on each kind of flooring material.

 

I think it is conceivable that you could perhaps automaticly decrease AI's acuity levels on easy by say 25% (or something in those lines), and that would make them even more vulnerable; that might be desirable for some in gameplay terms, however we cant be sure that it would make any difference in popularity terms as the sample of people who actually have a problem with it seems to be quite small (even in the Looking Glass post linked, the majority of comments I read were definitely positive, most even appreciated the added challenge and differences regarding Thief); there are several hypothesis around, but it is very hard to explain how and why a game goes viral.

Edited September 15, 2012 by RPGista

[Springheel]

I think it is conceivable that you could perhaps automaticly decrease AI's acuity levels on easy by say 25%

 

Yes, from the very beginning we had intended on having sliders that would allow people to increase/decrease the acuity of AI. I'm still not entirely opposed to the idea. Some missions do this on their own. AStS increases AI hearing on Expert, and the new ToSL will reduce AI hearing on Easy.

 

I'm open to arguments that it's not a good idea to do this on individual missions though, as it could be somewhat confusing for players trying to learn what AI react to in TDM.

[simplen00b]

This is probably a really rubbish analogy, but I'll offer it anyway:

 

Blackjacking in T1/T2 = draughts

Blackjacking in T3 = noughts & crosses (I'm a fan of T3, BTW - it introduced me to the Thief universe and I'll be forever grateful - but it really does hand BJing to you on a plate)

Blackjacking in TDM = chess

 

TDM was designed to be 'harder' than Thief. That's the way it is. It doesn't make it 'elitist', just more challenging.

 

Doesn't mean chess is 'better' than draughts, either. Just a different game.

[Springheel]

I have no idea what draughts and noughts & crosses are.

[simplen00b]

Aha! My analogy is so utterly brilliant no-one outside the UK can understand it (and possibly no-one inside either).

 

Drafts = checkers (http://www.draughts.org/)

 

Noughts & crosses = tic-tac-toe (http://www.wirral-mbc.gov.uk/OnlineGames/OsAndXs/OsAndXs.asp)

 

UK & US - two countries separated by a common language, as I believe (i.e. just googled) George Bernard Shaw said.

[Springheel]

I'm from Canada, and usually up on UK terms, but not those.

[fibanocci]

I don't know what you mean by "sensitive".

The awareness

 

What about auto-raising the arm, like TDS?

I don't like it either

I'm not entirely unsympathetic to the argument that TDM needs to be easier for newbies, but at the same time I don't want it to suffer from the "dumbing down" most modern games suffer from.

I understand. You can call it the cakewalk or whatever. Newbies will increase their skills. But first, they need to get into the game.

 

TDM was designed to be 'harder' than Thief. That's the way it is. It doesn't make it 'elitist', just more challenging.

 

Well, this has been said about 1000 times now.

[demagogue]

I wouldn't say hitting them in the toe is ok, but I could imagine an easier BJ setting where it KOs if it it's anywhere on the head (front & back) and maybe the top 1/3 of the back (including shoulders). You still give them the risk of needing to walk up behind the guard and get a shot at their head or back, but they know if it makes contact there will be a KO.

[Sotha]

Now that I think about it, there is one thing in the BJ system that could be improved.

 

Some maps have low ceiling. It is impossible to KO the AI as your swing hits the ceiling instead the AI's head. Especially, doorways seem to be KO-invulnerable-AI-zones. I'm not sure how it could be fixed though.

 

It's not a biggie, but try out KOing in the doorways.

[demagogue]

I wonder if there could be a brief period of no-clip just at the height of the arc that goes over the standard door height, if there is no brush otherwise between the AI & player below that area. It wouldn't be noclip for the whole arc, and it would fail if there's a barrier below the door height; you don't want to BJ through walls and still want them stopped in those cases. It's just for that special case of doorways, low ceilings, and open windows.

[Springheel]

The awareness

 

If by that you mean their sight, hearing, etc (generally called "acuity") that has no direct connection to blackjacking at all. If you turn their acuity down then _everything_ gets easier.

 

Which isn't to say that's a bad idea (see above) but it's really separate from how to make blackjacking easier.

 

I wouldn't say hitting them in the toe is ok, but I could imagine an easier BJ setting where it KOs if it it's anywhere on the head (front & back) and maybe the top 1/3 of the back (including shoulders)

 

Yes, that would certainly make it easier...I'm hesitant to favour that idea, though, as players would then have to relearn the system if they bumped up the difficulty. With lockpicking and combat, things work exactly the same way on each difficulty level, it's just that you have to be a bit faster or hit them more often. You don't actually have to change what you already learned how to do.

[simplen00b]

UK & US - two countries separated by a common language, as I believe (i.e. just googled) George Bernard Shaw said.

I'm from Canada, and usually up on UK terms, but not those.

:blush: :blush: :blush: sorry

[demagogue]

Don't worry. I *am* American and I understood the terms, first from context, and also just because only those games really make sense of those terms, and probably some distant memory too.

[Xarg]

(That people expect to be 100% good at blackjacking without any praxis whatsoever astonishes me)

 

 

Let's not start a human revolution by augmenting the blackjacking mechanics..

[demagogue]

Tels uses the word praxis all the time when he just means "practice". Praxis is a rather technical term of art pretty much reserved for stuffy continental philosophers talking about implementing some ideology in their actions or practical life. Makes for pretty cool philosophy sometimes (sans the Marxist variant, which was never cool IMO), but not a good term for day to day chatting.

[Xarg]

I figured it'd be something like that, but the youtube link was supposed to just be a link, not embedded.. which kinda ruined the small subtle humour post I was aiming for, and gave me the giant derp in-your-face-heres-a-video you see above. But seriously, blackjacking is not hard. It really isn't. If you aren't sure, spam the button and close distance, 99% of the time you'll get a ko instead of being found... pwease don't make it easier