Blackjacking -- still too difficult?

[Springheel]

(I almost went with the title, "BJ -- still too hard?")

 

Been watching a lot of Fen Phoenix's LPs of TDM, and he seems to be having a lot of difficulty with blackjacking. (check out his vids if you haven't already and leave feedback...this is exactly the kind of promotion TDM needs... except when he gets frustrated).

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlSwkX1s1m0&feature=g-u-u

 

 

I've lost the ability to determine whether blackjacking is hard or not, as I've got too much practice. What do others think?

 

Here's a still from one of his vids, where he misses the guard's head and hits the shoulder instead:

[pusianka]

Blackjacking? How do you do that? ;P

[Diego]

I voted that it's the right difficulty but I don't think this should need any kind of skill at all. My opinion is that the chalenge should come from two factors: approaching the guard silently from behind and knowing whether this guard can be blackjacked (because of helmet and level of alertness.) Not saying that guards should be "blackjackable" by getting hit on the foot, but the need for precise aiming adds very little to the gameplay and can be frustrating.

[Springheel]

I voted that it's the right difficulty but I don't think this should need any kind of skill at all.

 

Sounds like you're saying it's good the way it is but should be easier....?

[plasticman]

Just from what I see in that video: it looks like the Heart has not a very forgiving design.

 

I don't think blackjacking itself is to blame. He deals with alerted NPCs, wearing helmets. I know I had a hard time getting in without alerting them, but liked the mission non the less. Maybe it's just not mainstream.

[Iz Quierda]

No.

 

Do not dumb this game down.

 

He deals with alerted NPCs, wearing helmets.

 

'Nuff said.

[Springheel]

Just from what I see in that video: it looks like the Heart has not a very forgiving design

 

Yes, he does spend a lot of time wandering around the well-lit courtyard that is crawling with five or six guards. It's also hard, I imagine, to play a stealth game while keeping up a running commentary.

[Bikerdude]

Yes, he does spend a lot of time wandering around the well-lit courtyard that is crawling with five or six guards.

Also if he spent less time talking and more time playing he might actually learn just how easy it is to BJ any AI.

[Springheel]

Then it would be a walkthrough, not a LP.

[Bikerdude]

Then it would be a walkthrough, not a LP.

yeah but come on there is doing a walk through and then there is just inane chatter. The guy has cool voice, some of the voice he does are awesome, but he constant babbling gets right on my nerves. And this is made worse when I watch him poorly playing missions. I am half tempted to do a walk through myself.....

[Springheel]

Well, I enjoy his LPs primarily because of the chatter. But I think we've had this conversation before.

[Sotha]

Heh.. someone made a jackjacking spree video of their gameplay in KM. BJing seems too easy in that. For me, it is just great, although I do not blackjack people often. If it was too easy, it would be worthwhile to blackjack everybody. If there is a slight risk in BJing (mainly approaching a moving target) people might prefer stealth instead. It is a stealth game, right?

[Tels]

Well, I enjoy his LPs primarily because of the chatter. But I think we've had this conversation before.

 

Deja vu

 

At first I hated his constant chatter butit has grown so much on me that I started to save all his LP videos so I don't have to hunt them on youtube. Go, Fen!

[Sir Taffsalot]

Please don't make blackjacking any easier. I still play Thief FMs but dealing with the AI is a walk in the park. I'd say that in the last 12 months 75% of the Thief FM's I have played have been about solving puzzles and admiring the level design. Not stealth. This isn't meant as a critisism to Thief FM makers it's just that unless the layout of the FM is designed in a certain way I can just run up behind any AI, no need to walk or crawl or worry about which angle I approach them from and their out. As much as I still enjoy playing them, TDM offers an additional gameplay element that Thief FM's cannot due to the more challenging blackjack system.

 

I am half tempted to do a walk through myself.....

 

Do it.

[Tels]

Please don't make blackjacking any easier. I still play Thief FMs but dealing with the AI is a walk in the park. I'd say that in the last 12 months 75% of the Thief FM's I have played have been about solving puzzles and admiring the level design. Not stealth. This isn't meant as a critisism to Thief FM makers it's just that unless the layout of the FM is designed in a certain way I can just run up behind any AI, no need to walk or crawl or worry about which angle I approach them from and their out. As much as I still enjoy playing them, TDM offers an additional gameplay element that Thief FM's cannot due to the more challenging blackjack system.

 

What he said, seeing playthroughs of Thief FMs on youtube, where every AI is blackjacked as soon as the player spots it really makes me whince everytime.

[RPGista]

Sir Taffsalot: +1

 

In fact I remeber doing some tests and it is still possible most of the times to just normally walk down an AI and ko him, he'll complain about the noise but wont turn around in time, so it is not even difficult. I had to increase the senses and decrease the alert threshold quite a lot before they would react in time.

 

Where is that blackjack gameplay video you made when we need it?

Edited September 15, 2012 by RPGista

[Diego]

Sounds like you're saying it's good the way it is but should be easier....?

 

hehehe That was confusing, sorry.

 

My point is that precise aiming in that context isn't the right kind of challenge (what is and isn't is totally a matter of opinion, of course). I would take that away, and if that made it too easy I would make the AI aware of the player behind him if the player gets too close or takes too long to swing, like a sixth sense or something. In Thief the AI actually has an additional small cone of vision on the back of his head, if I'm not mistaken.

 

But no, it's not too difficult neither too easy.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Diego

[Springheel]

someone made a jackjacking spree video of their gameplay in KM

 

Link?

[Sotha]

Link?

 

That was so long ago. I think it was posted in the KM thread. Could not find it with quick googling.

[fibanocci]

If you want to attract newbies, then blackjacking should be easier on the lowest settings. If beginners are frustrated, they'll stop playing the game.

[Flanders]

If you want to attract newbies, then blackjacking should be easier on the lowest settings. If beginners are frustrated, they'll stop playing the game.

 

True, a poll for long time forum members and dark mod players says nothing about the difficulties nor newbs.

[RPGista]

It says that once you actually learn how to do it, its a perfectly reasonable feature of the game (actually once you play a fair amount of missions it gets so easy you dont even do it anymore not to spoil the mission).

 

All of us were new to this once and that wasnt a factor; most missions you dont even need to blackjack anyone, and as long as there isnt a steady flow of posts from new users complaining about unfair difficulty, there doest seem to be a reason to suppose something is wrong.

Edited September 15, 2012 by RPGista

[fibanocci]

<p>

It says that once you actually learn how to do it, its a perfectly reasonable feature of the game (actually once you play a fair amount of missions it gets so easy you dont even do it anymore not to spoil the mission)

That's elitist thinking. I bet, you've been a taffer for years.

All of us were new to this once and that wasnt a factor; most missions you dont even need to blackjack anyone, and as long as there isnt a steady flow of posts from new users complaining about unfair difficulty, there doest seem to be a reason to suppose something is wrong.

They don't complain, since they're not interested any more, who knows?

[Sotha]

They don't complain, since they're not interested any more, who knows?

 

An issue nobody complains about is not really an issue.

 

If you want to attract newbies, then blackjacking should be easier on the lowest settings. If beginners are frustrated, they'll stop playing the game.

 

Or we should have an easy-to-access blackjack trainer/tutorial to help new people grasp the basics of blackjacking.

[Bikerdude]

Or we should have an easy-to-access blackjack trainer/tutorial to help new people grasp the basics of blackjacking.

Shall I go ahead and make one then? recommendations for which mission to use though...