Other ideas for stealth.....

[AngelWolf]

This has been kicking around in my head for a while now. As I've posted elsewhere, I'd be very interested in creating a low budget, pay-by-mission/campaign commercial game based on the Dark Mod. To go commercial, I began thinking of ideas away from the traditional TTLG style Thief world. One of the first ideas I had was that someone in the Inventor's Guild made a device that responded to temporal anomalies or mirrors, allowing the player to timeshift in a manner similar to Metroid Prime 2. Got the idea while watching Doctor Who where there was a temporal crack in Amy Pond's wall that only she could see. With this stolen device the player would be able to see and interact with shimmering cracks that would allow them to slip into heavily guarded places by navigating a 4D maze. But the device has it's risks (which is why it was only a prototype deemed too dangerous for use) as the world on the other side of the crack is similar to Silent Hill or Stephen King's The Langoliers. A nightmare reality full of gibbering ghouls where the use of broadhead arrows and your sword is much more necessary. Another idea came from a book I read called "The Wolf's Hour" by Robert McCammon. It's about a spy in WW2 Germany who also happens to be a werewolf. I had been playing Return to Castle Wolfenstien at the time and I envisioned a game where the player can slip into a heavily guarded place as a wolf, with superior hearing and the ability to see scents in the air similar to Zelda: Twilight Princess. The catch is that you have to leave your clothes and weapons behind when you transform, so you must scout in wolf form to learn the guard patrols and create diversions (like destroying a generator) that will allow you to infiltrate in human form while the guards are distracted/unable to see properly. The same idea would work pretty good in a steampunk world.

 

Then one day I was with my buddy watching a series called "Burn Notice", about a spy who gets disavowed by the government and told he can't leave his homecity of Miami. Without any assets he uses his spy skills to help people who have problems. In one episode he had to rescue a girl who was suckered in by a fake modeling agency and was about to be sent to Russia as human traffic. In another he had to go after a drug cartel who put a hit out on someone for being an accidental witness. WIth the help of a team of friends, he uses stealth and trickery to plant bugs, steal documents, and get bad people arrested/killing each other all while trying to figure out who had him burned over the course of a season. Things don't always go as planned and he sometimes has to shoot his way out of trouble or set up traps beforehand. A good mix of stealth followed by small bursts of action/chase sequences. The episode format meshes pretty well with my idea of pay $3 to $5 per mission, and when a season-like story arc is completed after around 12 missions, the whole season can be released for a discounted price like a commercial game. I would also add some more fantastical elements found within the steampunk genre to the game. Airships that collect electricity (like Stardust) and high buildings connected by skybridges are the first things that come to mind, along with primative magic-based communication technology and equipment. I actually experimented creating a high-rise perspective using the skybox and lots of 1/16 scale models placed below the entity, and setting the floor around the base of the building to skybox_portal. Combined with a portal entity that moves relative to the player, the illusion is quite striking. I could very easily see an airship mission be created by having the skybox entity move on it's own over a skybox city. The only real problem I had with the idea is resizing the models so that the player could see people moving around on the distant buildings.

[Bikerdude]

I'd be very interested in creating a low budget, pay-by-mission/campaign commercial game based on the Dark Mod.

The problem with that is all the assent we use and have are via the creative commons licence which I believe dosent allow for commercial usage. Also the Doom3 source I think dosent allow for commercial usage either. That and I can see a bunch of team members having a problem with this as well. Sorry mista.

[AngelWolf]

I thought Doom 3 was open source now. Free as in speech providing that the game assets are all original. Hence the push to go standalone. I know the current assets are creative commons non profit, but that doesn't mean they have to stay that way. You guys are sitting on a potential gold mine here. In seven years with no budget, you guys have made assets that rival and in some cases surpass what the big budget studios are producing, on a game engine that is still impressive. I'm just not understanding why everyone would not be interested in getting paid for all this hard work when there are so many small independent teams making money selling small games on smartphones. There's definitely a market for games like this. So if it's a matter of liscence, why not change the liscence? If we did have to pay id to make a commercial game, finding someone to fund this wouldn't be too hard since most of costly work (the assets and code) has already been done. Remember that Counterstrike started out as a mod. I'm not saying that every mission should be released with a price tag either. Free missions draw interest and would be like the free component of the shareware model. The choice of weather or not to charge money for the work should be up to the individual artist or artists. It's the players who decide if the mission or campaign is polished enough to be considered of commercial quality.

[Sotha]

Money makes things more compilcated and provides a source of anger and bitterness. Why X should get more than Y? How should the significance of the contribution evaluated? Why would A get paid when B works his ass of for free. What about all the people who have contributed before us? I'm sure they would feel cheated if someone would start making money with stuff they worked on for free.

 

Money will distrupt a project like this. Being non-profit everything is crystal clear.

[Sir Taffsalot]

Why are you trying to create a game that is completely unrelated to Thief and charge money for it on a mod that IS based on Thief and IS for free?

Edited October 14, 2012 by Sir Taffsalot

[Obsttorte]

Because if you go through the forum and look what he's posting he often suggested possibilities to make money

 

Maybe just a bad habit.

Edited October 14, 2012 by Obsttorte

[Diego]

I like the idea of a stealth game as pay-per-mission thing! But I guess the only way to do it is from scratch.

[pusianka]

This man wants money:

 

[AngelWolf]

Yes. I'm poor and unemployed. My fiancé is living in public housing, where junkies bang on her door at 2am to beg for cigarettes. I'm 36 and living in my parents basement. Our economy is so bad that people who have college degrees can't get jobs, so a self taught guy like has very little hope unless he has a very impressive portfolio. Or if he creates his own business. I studied business and marketing while trying to save a failing pizza joint. The owner was an idiot who didn't want to listen to anything his managers suggested, even when those suggestions came from corporate. I've also recently read Masters of Doom, a book that describes in great detail how John Carmack and John Romero grew id software using computers they borrowed illegally from their day job employer. I learned a lot about the business of video games from that book, and found it not too much different from what I learned in the pizza business. Make a product people like, market it creatively, and make money. What I am suggesting is more of a business model based on the idea that The Dark Mod is an engine, and the missions/campaigns are the actual games. I also believe in the concept of everyone who contributed getting a share of the profit. You guys have worked hard on this and you deserve to get paid. A small percentage of residual income every time someone uses a model, texture, sound effect, etc. The programmers would also get a percentage based on how much they contributed. There's very little overhead because we're bypassing the retail market by making the commercial content downloadable, just like the shareware model. Marketing costs are also low because of social networks and YouTube. I also believe that if anything, this idea would only increase the quality of the missions, since people who want to make money doing this will put more effort into it. You might also notice that many of my suggestions are geared towards making Dark Radiant easier for beginners to work with. This is because I'm getting ready to start publicly speaking out here about the state of my economy and the failure of the education system. I'm going to be inspiring other people who are sick of being poor that they can make a living without going to college. I want to put together teams of people, to help me bring my ideas to life faster than it would take to do it all on my own. With organization and guidance, commercial quality is much easier to achieve in less time.

[Sir Taffsalot]

Can you learn how to create paragraphs please? As if Im going read that fugly wall of text.

[Diego]

I think you're under the impression the mod was made by a specific team of 15 people and they're all here. The real picture is more like several dozens of people (I have no idea of the real number) from all around the world, some contributing with nothing but a material or model, beta testing something etc. Most of them are nowhere to be found and the current team probably has 2 or 3 members from the founding team. I bet there are a whole bunch of assets created from sources like cgtextures while others used totaltextures each with its own license.

 

Sorting this mess out is more complicated than assembling a small team and make a game from scratch Which is what I'm trying to encourage you to do.

[New Horizon]

Yes. I'm poor and unemployed. My fiancé is living in public housing, where junkies bang on her door at 2am to beg for cigarettes. I'm 36 and living in my parents basement. Our economy is so bad that people who have college degrees can't get jobs, so a self taught guy like has very little hope unless he has a very impressive portfolio. Or if he creates his own business. I studied business and marketing while trying to save a failing pizza joint. The owner was an idiot who didn't want to listen to anything his managers suggested, even when those suggestions came from corporate. I've also recently read Masters of Doom, a book that describes in great detail how John Carmack and John Romero grew id software using computers they borrowed illegally from their day job employer. I learned a lot about the business of video games from that book, and found it not too much different from what I learned in the pizza business. Make a product people like, market it creatively, and make money. What I am suggesting is more of a business model based on the idea that The Dark Mod is an engine, and the missions/campaigns are the actual games. I also believe in the concept of everyone who contributed getting a share of the profit. You guys have worked hard on this and you deserve to get paid. A small percentage of residual income every time someone uses a model, texture, sound effect, etc. The programmers would also get a percentage based on how much they contributed. There's very little overhead because we're bypassing the retail market by making the commercial content downloadable, just like the shareware model. Marketing costs are also low because of social networks and YouTube. I also believe that if anything, this idea would only increase the quality of the missions, since people who want to make money doing this will put more effort into it. You might also notice that many of my suggestions are geared towards making Dark Radiant easier for beginners to work with. This is because I'm getting ready to start publicly speaking out here about the state of my economy and the failure of the education system. I'm going to be inspiring other people who are sick of being poor that they can make a living without going to college. I want to put together teams of people, to help me bring my ideas to life faster than it would take to do it all on my own. With organization and guidance, commercial quality is much easier to achieve in less time.

 

I'm truly sorry to hear about your financial situation and that of your girlfriend, but we are in no way about to start selling The Dark Mod. There have been many, many people who have contributed their work to us in good faith over the years. We have no way of tracking down each and every member.

 

The few of us left who were here in the beginning have been here for 7 years. We didn't start this project for to make money, it's a hobby and work of love.

 

I wish the best for you and your girlfriend, but I do not believe anyone on the team would ever A-OK anything like this.

[grayman]

I wish the best for you and your girlfriend, but I do not believe anyone on the team would ever A-OK anything like this.

 

+1

[Sir Taffsalot]

Firstly I am completely against selling TDM FMs. I think any contribution to the mod should be motivated by a desire to create art and nothing else. I do however have a few scenarios that I am curious about how would play out should the mod become a profit making venture.

• How will FMs be priced? Will they be all the same? What if I make an FM and it's twice the size of St. Lucia? What if I say that I think I should get paid twice as much because I've done twice as much work? What if due to visuals, gameplay, story or all three it's vastly considered to be only half as good a St. Lucia and J Dude says he should get paid twice as much because it's twice as good? Who has the final say? personally I think J Dude and myself both have valid points
  

• Dragons Claw by Bikerdude now has a price tag on it. I did the readables. I tell Biker that I want a share of the profits. Biker says no problem, have 20%. I tell Biker that my contribution is worth more and that I deserve 30%. Who ends the dispute? One thing I can be certain about is that Biker and myself will probably never work with each other again which would be a shame considering we never had a problem doing this before money became an issue
  

• Someone makes their first FM. It's not very good and certainly doesn't deserve a price tag. Does the FM Author get a PM from Springheel or Greebo saying "I'm sorry but we can only release your mission for free"? In other words we think your FM is worth nothing. How demoralising is this? It is unrealistic to expect everyones first FM to be as good as St. Lucia. We should expect mistakes. When someone releases an FM they make a thread in the forum where people can provide constructive criticism so they can get closer to making something as good as St. Lucia. Getting a PM saying your FM is worth nothing is demoralising and the FM author would probably not want to make another TDM FM again.
  

• Simular to the last point. Someone makes their first FM. Greebo thinks its great and should have a price tag on it. Springheel thinks it's awful and should be for free. What makes a good TDM FM is subjective. For example, Sotha likes clear objectives and to have a clear understanding of what he's supposed to do at all times. Bikerdude likes large open areas to explore and as a result might not be bothered by vague objectives. What Sotha consideres a bad FM Biker could very likely consider to be good.
  

• Lets not forget the modellers, texture artists, programmers, script writers or anything else that I'm too stupid to think about who for various reasons have moved on in their life and are no longer contactable. We can no longer use their contributions.
  

I agree with Deigo. You would be better off starting from scratch. Good Luck with that!

Edited October 15, 2012 by Sir Taffsalot

[SeriousToni]

I feel really sorry for you too, but I think you'll need another idea for making money. If you'd take money for this, people will stay at TDM or go back to Thief and its FMs.

Try to find some indy developers who'll listen to you with your ideas. Making a game all alone is impossible.

[AngelWolf]

I was thinking more along the lines of treating each mission/campaign as a game unto itself. It is the responsibility of the designer or team to decide if and what they want to charge for their work and come to a contractual agreement over the percentage of work. It would also be their responsibility to do their own marketing, or hire someone to do it. Think along the lines of tabletop RPGs. You have the main system rulebooks written and published by one company, and adventure module books written and published by another. The Dark Mod is the gameplay and assets...the canvas upon which artistic creations can be made. It's the players who will ultimately decide if the work was worth the price. People aren't shy about sharing their opinions. It's a part of marketing.

[New Horizon]

We really have no interest in bringing money into the equation in any form. That's not why we made this mod. People are getting reamed up the butt hole by corporations all the time for DLC and half finished games. May they find peace from that here.

[grayman]

TDM is free.

 

FMs that rely on TDM assets are free.

 

Money discussions waste everyone's time.

[Sir Taffsalot]

If you really want to make money in the gaming industry then I think a good way is to make FMs for TDM FOR FREE and send screenshots and download links to potential employers. Trying to convert a mod that has already established itself as free in to a profit making venture will not work due to the many reasons already listed in this thread.

 

SeriousToni also makes a good point. If TDM starts charging people they can just say "Sod it. People are still making FMs for the original Thief games so we can still get our Thief fix from TTLG."

Edited October 15, 2012 by Sir Taffsalot

[brethren]

I get the feeling AngelWolf never intended to ask anyone for permission to use the mod - I believe he assumes since Doom 3 is open source that he can just do it. It probably needs to be clarified that this isn't the case.

 

Selling TDM in just about any form just feels really wrong - I see a pretty dedicated crew around here who have been creating this mod for years for just one reason - fun.

 

@AngelWolf, I think Sir Taffsalot has the right idea. It's a long road, but create some outstanding things in TDM, and make that your portfolio/resume. Guys like Purah and Digital Nightfall started by creating kickass Thief campaigns, and now they're working at Arkane and were instrumental in developing Dishonored. If you're looking for a quicker route to $$$, you can always grab a copy of Unity or UDK and do your own thing.

[Xarg]

I *believe* CryEngine 3 is free if you're just an average-joe user looking to put something together, that's another avenue you can explore as well.

[Nielsen74]

SeriousToni also makes a good point. If TDM starts charging people they can just say "Sod it. People are still making FMs for the original Thief games so we can still get our Thief fix from TTLG."

 

I know I would!

[Radiant]

I *believe* CryEngine 3 is free if you're just an average-joe user looking to put something together, that's another avenue you can explore as well.

Don't use this one, it has a percentage on profit you have to give to Crytek when you want to sell your game. And in addition you have to pay for the license as well. (Around a million if I remember right...)

The Unreal Engine 3 has got a more indie friendly license model. The first 50,000 $ in turnover are free, over that you have to hand 25% to Epic Games.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Radiant

[7upMan]

Also, it might be worth noticing that the Unity engine costs 0 bucks for the free version and 1,500 dollars for the Pro version. And since everyone and their dog is using this engine, there are tons of tutorials on the net.

[AngelWolf]

Been a rough week for me in real life. I've been working on a tutorial series while taking care of my fiancé in the hospital. I guess I went a little bit manic there and the thread turned in the direction of money. I was really more interested in what you guys thought about my ideas. I am a huge Thief fan, and I started playing when Thief Gold first came out. I loved the fan mission scene and the quality that went into them. My boss hated me putting the T2X wallpaper up on my computer at work. Thief Deadly Shadows didn't disappoint me nearly as much as I had feared, especially after playing shalebridge cradle. And then the rumors began. A group of thief players, disappointed with thief 3, were making their own engine using Doom 3. it wouldn't be coming out for another 3 years, but when I saw doom 3 in a bargain bin for 10 dollars, I bought the game specifically for the dark mod.

 

And then I lost track of time. things sometimes get forgotten in the ADHD brain. I went through a very rough period with a woman I couldn't stand. Played WoW for a couple of years.