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Fan Mission: In the North (by grayman) (2012/10/20)


grayman

In the North (by grayman) (2012/10/20)  

127 members have voted

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  2. 2. Gameplay

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  3. 3. Story

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Sorry about that.

 

Everyone asks for maps, then many don't use them.

 

 

I was using the maps, I think the reason that I and others kept thinking church and chapel were the same is that we saw it afterwards on the 2nd floor and it stuck in our mind going through it a lot, while the chapel I had only visited once earlier in the game and it just slipped my mind :-p Also, there is a statue in both so the 2nd one is more recent in memory as well. Just a thought process thing really heh. In any event once I got past that was smooth sailing. Excellent work, lotsa fun :D .. sadly I've done all the Fms that were available now and will be in withdrawal :o

 

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I used the map very often, too. I think it was a great help, as the area is quiet huge.

 

 

Regarding the church/chapel misunderstanding: This may also be caused by some kind of language barrier. As I spotted it on the map (after spending an hour or so searching the secret lever in the church) I suddenly realized that a church and a chapel are not the same thing. :P You can't imagine how hard I clapped my hand against my head.

 

 

Actually maps are like condoms. It's better to have one when you don't need it then the opposite. :D I think it also adds a lot to immersion.

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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Yeah, I think it is more of a "church/chapel" problem rather than "map/no map" problem. I was also confused and looking for the thingy in the church. Somehow I had forgotten the chapel entirely, probably because I somehow expected the house to have only one religious-room (why BOTH church and a chapel?). After looking for the secret for a while in the church, I consulted my maps and -voila- I remembered the chapel again: saved by the map, very good I had one!

 

 

I think it is safe to say that all missions, in which the hero undertakes a planned action (plans to rob a house, buys deliberate equipment..), should give a map to the player: if the thief character really is a master thief, of course they would prepare for the heist appropriately, right?

 

Also, gameplaywise: the player cannot make meaningful decisions how to proceed and through where if no map is given. Why rob the player from the joy of making those decisions? Without a map it's just blind staggering around without a clear picture where to go (in other words, exploration.)

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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why BOTH church and a chapel?

 

When writing a story, a lot of the backstory and research doesn't end up in the story itself.

 

In this case, the backstory includes that the main room with the alter was where the Builders worshipped, and the chapel was where the villagers would visit if they wished. In the original building, there was an outside entrance to the chapel, so that the villagers didn't need to track through the main rooms to get to it.

 

After the restoration, that entrance no longer opened to the outside, but to the interior east hall of the first floor.

 

My bad, I suppose, for not differentiating the chapel and the church more. In the original building, they were part of the overall Church, but in Harckoff's time, the main room with the alter came to be called "the church" and "the chapel" retained its original name.

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But some players find exploration also cool :P

Certainly! But surely giving the player a map does not rob the joy of exploration from the explorer?

Agreed. An 'explorer' can always choose to simply not use the map. But a 'planner' without a map ...

 

IMHO both aspects of the game, the planning and the exploration are very important. And it's especially the possibility to plan, thus meaning to make your progress following a strategy, what differs this kind of game from all the Call of Warfare Bullshit beautiful games taking the player serious and challenging him with steady progressing game mechanics embedded in a excellent story ... what the :o

 

As said, you can just ignore the possibility to use them.

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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Agreed. An 'explorer' can always choose to simply not use the map. But a 'planner' without a map ...

 

Mappers could always take the St. Lucia course and offer a map in the purchase screen. People who don't need a map don 't have to buy it.

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Remarkable, amazing, brilliant! I love this mission. Not done yet, finally down "below" and psyching myself up for the nasties down there. I'll post more about this incredible mission when I finish.

 

Just a comment about maps and the chapel/church.

For me the confusion about what was where on the map had to do with a room

labelled "Blue Room" on the map, but not realizing for quite a long while that this was not, in fact, the room with blue lighting. Since I did think

it was that room, my orientation was quite out of whack, and I figured Steele's source must had been very drunk when he drew it for him.

 

Edited by ithel
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Finished with the first run. First the stat stuff:

 

Played the highest difficulty, ghosting, had to reload 4 times from being detected by proximity.

Play time: 8.5 hours (sorry, no speed-runs here!)

optional objectives fulfilled (LOVED these)

0 blackjacks

9 pockets picked

7 damage dealt (not sure from what...maybe from a crate I accidentally dropped

while climbing a rope in the broken stairway

 

0 damage taken

5576 of 5686.....darn it, where'd I miss this 110? Anyone have an idea? Edit:

just saw Thiefette's loot question above...would that one item at Sagon's tomb account for the 110 missing?

 

3 stealth score

 

Grayman, like others have said, you have raised the bar again....I think we're now in the realm of pole-vaulting. This is top tier work, shockingly good. I love how every detail coherently furthers the experience. A few days ago, I was reading and thinking about Demogogue's essay on the narrative structure of missions (so many wonderful insights!)--then I installed 1.08 and jumped straight into "In the North" to find a powerful illustration of those very design principles. Rarely have I been so emotionally involved in the life of the characters. The pacing was excellent, and I was drawn into the story from the very start, with the

note near the skeleton in the entry/escape tunnel

, the tension and complexity of the tale racheting up room by room, all the way to the utterly satisfying

"Later that night...." sheer genious!

The only downside to all this abundance of excellence is realizing that at my very best whatever mission I finally complete won't even be in the same ballpark as this incredible work. You are an amazing talent in a community bursting with amazing talent. I feel overwhelmed and inspired all at once, by you and all the other mission designers who push TDM into the realm of art--as well as you and all the other TDM programmers whose diligence, sacrifice, and vision have brought this wonderful mod into being.

 

A big thank you, Grayman, from this taffer.

Edited by ithel
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A few bugs were noted elsewhere in this thread, TDM related. I saw a few more and am adding them here to eventually trace the cause.

 

There was a chest

in the storage attic. The lid for the chest was detached, resting on top of the wardrobe behind the chest. The frobbable loot was inside the lid, not the chest.

 

I don't at the moment remember her name, but the weeping girl near the beginning

stopped patrolling at some point... I later found her in the side room mirroring Weldon's in the infirmary, asleep, hovering above the floor.

 

Might not be a bug, but

that girl hid loot which she identified as a year's salary, yet it turned out to be 50 gold! If it's not a bug, the Count is one stingy prick. :)

 

 

There are so many great details in this mission, I could write a long while about them. But here are a few that struck me in particular. Some have already been mentioned:

 

1. The breath vapor

 

 

2. Lady Isabella's guards (custom outfits were nice!) following her movements....and also the rats following the movements of the revenants! Perfect touch!

 

 

3. objects I don't remember seeing before: spinning-wheel, cider press, washboard

 

 

4. As others have said, the overall layout is flawless. I love the three-tiered church area, for instance. The architecture is amazing and coherent. I love the curved walls and the patch steps that look worn and smooth.

 

 

5. Sound design is a real plus. The ambient sounds set the mood without dominating the soundscape or masking the movements of AI. Speaking of the AI, I'm so glad you used the task orientation style of movement (can't remember the term you've been tossing around... RTI or something like that, will check after posting this) rather than only patrols. I think both have their place.

 

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@ithel,

 

Glad you liked the mission.

 

Wrt your comments:

 

 

 

Teresa is the name of the crying maid. At 7pm, there's a massive "shift change", where most of the AI go off to do something different. Some relieve other AI at their posts, many go to bed. Teresa goes to bed. If she ended up hovering, it's most likely a TDM bug. I never saw her hovering, and that wasn't reported during beta. There's plenty of room there for her to lie down properly on the bed. Perhaps something disturbed that process.

 

The loot sitting in the chest lid is on purpose. The guard was making sure his ill-gotten gain wouldn't be snatched by his friends.

 

Yes, the Count was a stingy SOB.

 

 

 

Thanks again!

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@ithel:

 

 

 

Sadon's religious item is worth 80.

 

If you missed that and still need 30 for total loot, the only loot in the mission that's worth exactly 30 is a spyglass. The fact that it's missing is noted in one of Harckoff's readables.

 

If you picked up the spyglass, then the remaining 30 is the sum of at least two other items.

 

Sadly, I can't pinpoint those for you.

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

quakis, I always keep an eye on your site/blog! Good work!

 

Amazing how people from all countries but with the same interests come together on the same (little) sites online, like this!

Edited by lowenz

Task is not so much to see what no one has yet seen but to think what nobody has yet thought about that which everybody see. - E.S.

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  • 4 months later...

My background is, doubtless like many here, someone who has played all of the Thief series and recently many fan missions.

 

This is the best mission I've played, better than most in the released games imo. I loved the atmosphere and happily spent a couple of evenings roaming around the mission. Just brilliant. I have no idea how long it took, but thank you! I can't wait for another.

 

(I'm not a fan of the supernatural / undead / ghosts etc., but that was minimal here and well done.)

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  • 2 weeks later...

Wow, so many "excellent" votes in every category... seems like i got to play this! I also like series, already played the Thief's Den series, and most of the Thomas Porter series, which are both excellent and highly recommended btw. Even simple connections between the different missions make quite an impact on the gameplay, it's just fun and adds a lot of atmosphere if the missions are connected. Looking forward to play this. :)

Edited by chk772
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  • 4 weeks later...

I loved your first mission, and had high hopes for this one. The way you see Thief appears to be precisely the way I enjoy it, putting exploration and depth with several layers of realism (through architecture, minute detail, non-playable characters with intentions and backstories, change of plans, secrets and well-timed revelations) at the core of immersion. Stealth itself is a bit on the easy side, maybe a couple additional guards patrolling the floors inside the manor would have helped increasing the tension.

 

I liked the attention to detail in the layout, it conveyed very well the fact that the new part of the manor was an addition to the older church. I liked the functional architecture, as each room has a clear purpose and is beautifully designed to convey that purpose, along with the state of decay it's supposed to be in. I liked the absence of decorative doors. I liked the non-linearity in how rooms are connected together, I thought the library in particular, with its balcony and different sets of stairs was fantastic. I liked how the crypt was a mostly circular pathway patrolled by two revenants, funneling the player towards them while remaining believable, with the help of empty alcoves making excellent improvised hiding spots. I liked how the map didn't show the detailed layout of rooms a servant or guard wouldn't have had access to, such as the master's quarters, and I liked that not every single stair access was precisely noted, giving a very organic feel to navigating using the map. I liked reaching the beautiful balcony outside the belltower and realising it was a snow mission. I liked seeing some loot at the end of the church's rafters and liked the nod to Brother Murus... I could go on for a long time.

 

I, too, lost a few minutes in confusion over the chapel switch but it was my own fault for not seeing that there was a chapel in addition to the church (I went to the 2nd floor using the dumbwaiter directly so hadn't looked at the map for the first floor yet).

 

This was my best Thief experience in a long time so... thanks a lot grayman. A truly remarkable mission.

Edited by Briareos H
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