Streets and Rooftop Missions

[grayman]

I'm working on a rooftop mission, and wondered how players felt about what happens in such a mission when you either survive a fall to the street or carefully make your way there.

 

IIRC, Life of the Party let you wander a small area of dead-end streets with hardly any detail (windows, doors, etc.). There was no effort to present functioning or navigable streets. Your only way back up was to load a saved game. LotP is considered one of the most interesting missions, so apparently this design choice was okay.

 

Up top is a poll where you can cast a vote.

 

Thanks!

[gnartsch]

Hmmm... the first choice seems to be the obvious one.

However authors might want to allow the player to also access the streets - for whatever purpose - but then he would need to allow multiple ways to get back up again.

On the other hand he might deny a way to get back up again, but place a couple of terribly difficult tasks and hurdles as a punishment for failing a primary objective : Stay on the rooftops FAILED ! Means: lots of guards patrolling in some areas where the player gets at least a good beating.

[Bikerdude]

Gman, you should have a look at the mission Melan and myself are working on for the campaign as its is exactly this..

[grayman]

Gman, you should have a look at the mission Melan and myself are working on for the campaign as its is exactly this..

 

I'll send you a PM to discuss this particular map. Don't want to give anything away here.

[ungoliant]

If you don't want players on the street, fog the street level out to barely visible. Otherwise, do it up proper. LotP never intended street-level play, I didn't even know you could get there.

[demagogue]

I think I'd leave it. Try to make it high enough so they usually die when they fall. But if they go to all the effort to get down there, or if it's an accident, then I'd let them stay and just have empty streets and nothing to do (edit: it'd be better to fill them out of course, only that takes time), and maybe streets back to the start with some one-way stairs that get them back to the start, e.g., you can open its gate only from the inside. But it's a total personality thing, and my personality is against too many artificial things in the world. If someone else has a different personality, I'd rather them stick to it.

 

If I really wanted to police it though, I'd do it with a simple "Do not go to ground level." objective that fails when you hit the check brush, so maybe they have a few seconds to run around and then it fails.

[jaxa]

I voted for #3, but I think you should just do whatever you prefer.

[Sotha]

This is very difficult stuff. You need to weight the options carefully.

 

The problem:

There is the performance problem: you can't have high detail streets AND high detail rooftops. If the gameplay is in the rooftops, the streets are empty of detail and AI. (No point having AI eating tris and CPU time if they are just props). Fog may be of no help, since it is difficult to get to look right.

 

The player probably needs to move in the rooftops because the street level is swarmed with guards, right? If the player can get to the street level and realize that there is nobody here, his immersion might break: why go via rooftops since the street level is free of enemies?

 

There is the accessibility problem: if you give the player rope arrows, the player can get down safely to the forbidden area. If you don't give the player rope arrows, it is a bit weird since they are obvious equipment for a rooftop scaling business. In PB it was very bad that people could land safely and then instantly just die.

 

My blunder in phrase book consisted of these factors:

0) Because of performance, I could not have fully detailed and playable rooftops AND street level.

1) it was not crystal clear for the player that they should stay on the rooftops.

2) some people tried to get to the street level and were confused why they insta-died hitting the ground. This was to solve the issue of the player getting stuck in the ground floor without rope arrows.

 

The solution:

If I would redesign PB, I think, I would correct thing #1. Make an objective out of it like gnartsch suggested so that everyone understands that the streets are off-limits. With that, you could also maintain the reason why the player should not access the street level. Have the street level to be empty due to performance reasons. If the player falls down, DON'T kill them. Rather have a speaker play "Hey! There is a thief on the street! ALARM! ALARM!" sound and spawn guards from the prop street level doors. Wait 2 seconds, fade the screen to black and the mission terminate due to failed objective.

 

I think this is the best solution: everyone knows the streets is off-limits. You can explain the emptiness of the streets: people are inside the buildings and the player is seen from the windows if he lands on the street. If the player enters the forbidden area, guards are spawned to enforce the illusion why the player needs to avoid the streets. Ticking the mission failure makes sure the player understands why they failed and they got a sort of 'cutscene' of their demise. Also they don't have much time to look around and realize how bare the street level is. It also saves the mapper the trouble of creating staircases etc for the player to get out of the street if they don't have rope arrows. All issues are answered and this system is relatively easy to set up: a big trigger, a script, a speaker and a few AI's in the blue room waiting to be teleported to apprehend the street touching player. (Or the street-level prop doors could be REAL and the AI's are just in 'closets' waiting for new targets to run to the streets.)

 

I did not vote, since this solution is kinda 'other' option.

[Professor Paul1290]

On the subject of making it clear the the player should stay on the rooftops, I think I would be somewhat troubled by the idea even if the you were caught at street level and it ended the mission.

 

It would be better than simply killing the player and honestly it wouldn't matter to me too much, but it would still feel a bit arbitrary and off.

 

 

What about more unusual circumstances to justify rooftop hopping so it doesn't feel as forced?

 

 

For example, Bridgeport is a a port city so I imagine some parts might get flooded sometimes given terrible weather. Maybe part of the city gets flooded due to a storm and the water was infested by killer flesh eating leeches!

 

Yea I know, that sounds absolutely silly, but you get what I mean. Personally I would feel better about being forced onto rooftops by something unusual like that rather than instantly being caught by guards or falling to death. (Your mileage may vary as always).

Edited November 5, 2012 by Professor Paul1290

[Melan]

Ideally, the streets should be accessible and navigable with all the relevant gameplay considerations, and you should be able to travel between the two planes. But it is a question of time, effort and performance. Mostly time.

[Keiler]

The problem:

There is the performance problem: you can't have high detail streets AND high detail rooftops. If the gameplay is in the rooftops, the streets are empty of detail and AI. (No point having AI eating tris and CPU time if they are just props). Fog may be of no help, since it is difficult to get to look right.

 

[...]

 

I think this is the best solution: everyone knows the streets is off-limits. You can explain the emptiness of the streets: people are inside the buildings and the player is seen from the windows if he lands on the street. If the player enters the forbidden area, guards are spawned to enforce the illusion why the player needs to avoid the streets. Ticking the mission failure makes sure the player understands why they failed and they got a sort of 'cutscene' of their demise. Also they don't have much time to look around and realize how bare the street level is. It also saves the mapper the trouble of creating staircases etc for the player to get out of the street if they don't have rope arrows. All issues are answered and this system is relatively easy to set up: a big trigger, a script, a speaker and a few AI's in the blue room waiting to be teleported to apprehend the street touching player. (Or the street-level prop doors could be REAL and the AI's are just in 'closets' waiting for new targets to run to the streets.)

 

I really like this solution, but would suggest to simply put it as mission objective to not touch the streets. E.g. it appears to be a common objective to not kill anyone (althoug I havent tried yet what happens if you do ) in a mission, so the player is used to follow such instructions. Giving reason like "The streets are full of alert guards only waiting to get their hands on you" might be good.

 

While I believe that Sotha's suggestion would add a lot to the atmosphere of the mission, in my opinion it would suffice to instantly fade to black and display a mission failed screen stating briefly the reason for failure ("You reach the street level and are caught instantly. The tower awaits you.") This might require no or not much additional resources and work.

 

Alternatively, after touching the streets, the player could automatically be teleported to a specific location, e.g. jail (after a cutscene or a text is displayed like "You reach the street level and are caught instantly. You are brought to the city jail.") from which the player then needs to escape to get back to the rooftops again (e.g. from the top prison cell of a tower jail). This would reduce the work needed on street level and maybe would make it easier have a way to access the rooftops. Maybe escaping from jail should be a bit harder so the player doesn't feel the need to try it more than once.

[Obsttorte]

Alternatively, after touching the streets, the player could automatically be teleported to a specific location, e.g. jail (after a cutscene or a text is displayed like "You reach the street level and are caught instantly. You are brought to the city jail.") from which the player then needs to escape to get back to the rooftops again (e.g. from the top prison cell of a tower jail). This would reduce the work needed on street level and maybe would make it easier have a way to access the rooftops. Maybe escaping from jail should be a bit harder so the player doesn't feel the need to try it more than once.

 

this is quite a nice idea, there was something like that in a splinter cell mission (the part with the north koreans IMO) where you were put in a room and loose your equipment once you're caught, but are able to continue the mission

 

I thought this was pretty cool and gave me a reason to play the mission twice

 

But IMO such a mechanic only makes sense if this only works one time, so if you caught again, the mission fails leading to the same question

[Diego]

I voted "I don't care" because each way leads to a different effect altogether and none is better than the other. If you manage to make both streets and rooftops interesting go for it, it becomes two different paths. If it's an endless pit the level becomes almost like a puzzle platformer (like TMA rooftop mission)

 

edit: Except "Wander around in a featureless box canyon with no way up" seems pretty boring lol

Edited November 5, 2012 by Diego

[nbohr1more]

I don't think it matters either way as long as you make the rules clear to players before they begin.

All video games necessarily fall short of what a player wants to do in-game. There will always be some

freedom that they are prohibited, even in sandbox games. Players can accustom themselves to most

of the limitations of any game and still become engrossed and immersed in the experience.

 

That said, ideally you want your game world to be as realistic as possible so making the street level

inaccessible will be disappointing compared to a fully explorable world. I chose option 4 for this reason.

 

Option 1 would be less of a problem with a cut-scene where the player is surrounded if he tries to visit

the ground. That would make the limitation more believable and keep that fun "hot-lava" game mechanic alive.

[ungoliant]

I don't understand some of the viewpoints in this thread at all. It's like saying "I should be able to navigate through this solid rock wall, but I understand if you don't have the time to implement a shovel and the mechanics to dig through it". We take almost every other barrier for granted as boundaries that cannot be crossed, without hesitation or second thought. If a mapper makes it clear that a similar boundary is imposed by gravity, why not just leave it at that? Would you prefer to climb into and explore the buildings that make up the skybox as well? I dunno, my personal 2 cents i guess.

[Midnight]

Here's an idea. All rooftop only missions should take place in the flooded district. If you fall to street level, you DROWN!

 

Seriously though I don't think it's that big a deal whichever way you deal with it. If the streets are off limits it should be pointed out in the briefing and (preferably) also as an objective. Having the player die when they reach the street is ok (I'm pretty sure LOTP had this, I was never able to walk the streets in that mission).

[demagogue]

I agree with Sotha's post.

 

For the record, from my memories of Life of the Party & Uncodonego's Thieves' Highway, I never really noticed the sparseness of the lower streets anyway, because there's enough gameplay to deal with on the rooftops. And Sotha had a good point... For every resource you put into the streets, you are sapping them from the rooftops, and it'd be better if you focused your ambition and resources on the roof gameplay and visuals.

[_Atti_]

My thoughts on rooftop mission:

 

Make sure the player has a reason to be on the rooftops. He should not do it just because its cool to be up there..

It should be dangerous up there but looking down to the streets it should be well worth it's dangers, streets could be well lit and patrolled or crowded.

Or just plain unpredictable.. not knowing when the barack door opens, or someone from a tower watching.

 

You could also do a mixture of two kind of sections.One that are high rise parts, dangerous because of height..here you dont need to detail anything down there as a fall means death.

And other parts that are closer to street level but visibly dangerous down there because of patrol or lighting. Here the player would get caught down there soon anyway. These parts could be optional hard spots on the map the player may or may not explore before returning to continue on.

Edited November 6, 2012 by _Atti_

[brethren]

For the record, there is a brush at street level on LOTP that will cause the mission to fail, even if you manage to make it down there. The whole idea behind the mission is that security on the streets around Angelwatch is heavy due to the party there, so Garrett decides to infiltrate via the rooftops.

 

I think Sotha's solution is the least of all evils - the player is instructed to stay on the roofs, and if he doesn't, fade to black, fail. Or the spawning AI idea. If you let the player survive the lower areas, then it's not a true rooftops mission and the thrill of staying up there is gone, which is kind of the point of doing it in the first place I think.

 

Here's an idea. All rooftop only missions should take place in the flooded district. If you fall to street level, you DROWN!

 

Sounds like you've been playing Deadly Shadows.

[lost_soul]

I voted for "die taffer die". In PB, I did try to get down to explore the city and I realized that was a "no no" when I died before I even touched the ground.

Edited November 6, 2012 by lost_soul

[TheUnbeholden]

I would love a pure rooftop mission, I've always loved going on rooftops more than anything else in Thief, but for some reason so few mods (or even official maps) allow you, most go out of their way to bar you from being able to go atop by spikes at the top of walls like T3.

 

People choosing the third option sounds a bit to much of bullshit & chips, ie wishful thinking of people who want their cake & eat it, I would say the streets would sacrifice detail & probably would have you die from the fall. Certaintly I wouldn't mind a short detour that goes to the ground level, but mostly it would be rooftops or maybe going down a level or two to leap from a window in order to get across to another building.

Edited December 6, 2012 by TheUnbeholden

[Baddcog]

Probably nothing that hasn't been said:

 

If it's a dedicated rooftop mission, then make the roofs very high above the ground and player dies on contact. You really don't need much detail down there though having some wondering ai isn't bad. You could tune them down to basically rats. No reactions to arrows, etc... to save perf. It keeps the city looking alive, of course it could be only a few guards and mention a curfew. Maybe even a chase scene where they kill a thug if the player comes to a good vantage

 

I think that's completely acceptable IF it makes sense in the story.

 

You certainly won't hear anyone complain about a 100% rooftop mission, in fact it's probably the most desired map type of all as they are generally the least produced.

 

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you can always throw in some easter egg too for people who have to no clip and check the streets out. Don't make a kill brush down there, just let fall damage take care of it. (and make sure they can't jump down window ledges, etc..

 

======

 

I'll just put this here for anyone who doesn't map:

 

Optimizing (vis-portaling) maps can be pretty tough in open city streets. You are basically placing large doorways so they player can't see between them (can see as few rooms at once as possible).

 

So a zig zag street is pretty easy to optimize (think of a hallway with multiple doors at corners - walk though one door and you loose sight of the others).

 

Once you get to rooftops you no longer have the ceiling/walls to block your views. Or to put a door jam in.

So it gets very tough to seal off areas and optimize and look natural.

 

Hence the reason most people shy away from rooftop missions. I know I have started at least 5 in my mapping days and never got far.

 

That's the main reason to do one or the other. Streets OR rooftops. Rooftops you can 'cheat' and keep most 'regular' details to a minimum because player won't be on the street to notice them. Don't need a lot of crates, shovels, etc.. (larger areas)

Streets you can highly detail because players can't see over building tops into other areas and you are in hallways which are easy to seal off. (smaller areas)

 

But if you combine rooftops AND streets it is very hard to seal off in small areas so you have to cut back on details everywhere. So the streets become lackluster and low detail and performance may still suffer.

 

 

Melan has done some nice vertical gameplay, but Return to the City is not a 'proper' rooftop mission as much as it is a city street level with great vertical gameplay. There are only a few spots where you cross roofs, mainly you just skirt the top of buildings in a crooked street. The streets are fully detailed to be viewed at any height.

(Even the rooftop stuff in Dishonoured was much more this style)

This is more about precariously walking along high ledges.

 

To me a rooftop mission has more street intersections you need to jump across, roofs that are fully accessible, and more long distance horizontal sightlines. 'Party' in TMA was this style, you got to shoot guards at a distance across the roofs, etc..)

This is more about being on 'solid ground' with great views and heroic jumps to make.

[demagogue]

I thought some of Dishonored's approaches were instructive. You can (and it did) have some crossovers. One way is having a valley or "hallway" of much higher surrounding buildings, and in the middle you have your row of climbable & crossable rooftops. It also had that level with layered walking paths at multiple levels in the middle. And you can also have individual cross points between two "hallway" streets, like a capital letter H, where the two sides are the hallway streets, and the crossbar is a crossable rooftop between them. Another variation (like the penultimate level) is having the valley branch like a Y, and still having an H cross-bar between the sides after the branch.

 

More complex, you could have crosses at discrete cross points, but the path would wind around back and forth over the rooftop (crossings) not just an H, but like an S, or S's on top of each other. Or even overlapping double crossing S's like a 2D double helix (in the sense you could only see one side of the hallway-street at a time, and there's no single long line of sight down the rooftop with both sides in view for long, but you're crossing back & forth between the two sides so often it feels more open and free). [*Footnote: The level with the rooftop S-crossings back and forth BTW was made by our own Digital Nightfall. So you could say it's a homebrew technique in our FM community.]

 

Another idea is to have crossover points at the highest point along a single wall (like getting to the Overseers place), so you can portal it vertically from the top of the wall to the skybox, but that portal says closed everywhere because the other rooftops on either side of the wall aren't as high.

 

There are always some limitations, but there are ways you can use rooftops better than others within the limits.

[stumpy]

my oak village map is a bit like a roof top map, its a part of the city thats been walled up and parts of the village are only accessible by climbing the steam pipes from location to location, so you can either go along the ground and go through a few buildings at ground level, or you can stick to the steam pipes and access other areas of the village, but as it was walled up ages ago all areas are surrounded by a very high wall. So the layout is basically boxes connected by tunnels, or boxes connected by doors. And I've spent about 6 months trying to optimize it. so you can now go from the start area to the ending area without touching the ground along the route. or you can go from the start area to the end area along the ground and only have to go up to bypass obsticles. Although you're not likely to see this released until summer next year as I havent got much spare time to work on it.