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Killing AI with arrows--too easy


Springheel

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Holding back on KOing or using tools is essentially admitting that the game isn't hard enough, IMO.

 

Another thing that makes me feel ill...watching players waltz through a level dropping five or six enemies in a row with a single broadhead arrow. Like the latest LP from Demonfrog. What's the point of sneaking, or even KOing, when you can do this:

 

http://www.youtube.c...YjzPPCKhyg

13:44 (and multiple other places)

 

I thought you were only supposed to be able to kill AI with a headshot if they were unalert? If you can drop a charging guard with a single arrow, that's a bit of a problem isn't it?

 

To me, the fact that the Rambo approach is actually easier than stealth means something is broken. The player is supposed to use stealth because it's safer, not just for nostalgia's sake.

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To me, the fact that the Rambo approach is actually easier than stealth means something is broken. The player is supposed to use stealth because it's safer, not just for nostalgia's sake.

 

Valid points, thinks I. The idea is to sneak because the player should be weak and given their asses handed to them if the guards engage him on their terms.

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-The mapper's best friend.

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Arrows should definitely not be 1-shot-kills for alerted guards. 4-5 maybe. I recall T2 taking more than 10, which is maybe too much though, since that just clears out your arrow count once the player feels "arrow committed".

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What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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It's actually normal that you can kill with one arrow a charging guard... it is though very easy but then again it should be somehow penalised or balanced. I'd say no return arrow, after all it should be hard to take out an arrow from the skull of a human... besides there is still a lot to do to make the AI more responsive to what it sees and hears.

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Originally you could NOT kill a charging guard with one arrow.

 

I remember we had a _very_ long conversation about how many arrows it should take to kill someone at some point in the development cycle, and the one shot kill was only supposed to affect AI who you were "backstabbing" (ie, not alerted).

 

I think this changed when we created different difficulty levels for combat because people were having trouble with it. The default combat level is the easiest one (which is wrong, IMO, since most players don't even realize it's there and wind up with easy guards)*, and it affects how many HP the AI have. When I put the level up to Hard, you can't kill an alert guard with just one arrow anymore. It takes at least two, which usually gives the AI enough time to close. On Expert it takes even more.

 

I submit that "Hard" should really be the default level, so that if people want to go Rambo style, they have to intentionally choose AI that are easy to kill.

 

 

* Case in point...there is a video that shows a player speed-running through Seige Shop and killing every AI he finds. It looks distressingly easy. I asked him what combat difficulty level he was on, and he wasn't even aware it could be changed.

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Didn't know that either.

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

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Things we could use to make it harder:

 

* make the AI cry/shriek really really loud, so if you shoot someone in the face, they run around for 1..2 seconds screaming on top of their lungs (in the video he passes a guy on an arched door, then gets spotted and hits the incoming two guys in the head. Neither the 2 beggars nor the guard he just passed care (the guard didn't seem to hear a thing, the beggars don't care)

 

* make a random "arrow breaks on skull, AI is momentarily disoriented (0.2seconds?) and then charges again yelling something like "oh you gonne hit me in the head/face?""

 

* can we make the AI duck when it detects an incoming arrow? (that would make the AI cheating, probably not a good idea, as cheating AI isn't something player will like)

 

* can we add some sort of "arrow spree" that is like gun recoil that makes you fire in a slightly different direction, so you can't hit the same pixel everytime from 10m afar? This is a combination of "hitting someone charging at you is too easy - if they run sideways orr walk seaching it is suddenly a lot more difficult, because the AI randomly changes direction." and "I can hit exactly where I want".

 

Just upping up the health or dialing the damage the arrow down is probably not easy, or makes other things different that we don't want to change like sword stabs etc.

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"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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I like the cry/shriek idea. Personally I think that players should have the possibility to take out enemies one by one as long as they are careful doing so. I'd liked the original thief approach, which made it impossible to kill an alerted ai with one shot.

 

I must say that I dislike the arrow breaks randomly idea. Such things may only distract the players.

 

Ducking: If the reaction time is long enough so it only takes effect on long ranges I guess it would make sense to do so.

 

In addition the AI could hold their weapon (sword or hammer or whatever) in a way when approaching the player, that makes it hard to actually hit the face. What we also could think about is some sort of focusing time. This would go into the direction of the arrow spree as Tels mentioned it. The bow is "swinging" a bit as you aim and this swinging slowly settles down after a while. Thus would provide enough precision to take out unalerted guards over quite a fair distance but would it make harder to go into rambo style.

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FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

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I know unalert headshots were supposed to be insta kill while alert ones were not.

 

Though a head shot should still be a kill realistically. At the very least it should stop them in their tracks. And it should make them scream. If we can do that I think that it's the best choice. It effectively turns them from an immediate charging threat to an alarm which alerts other nearby AI. They'd still be a threat for the time being. It also disallows the player from taking down 5 charging ai in a row.

Might still be able to drop them, but they won't be completely out of the picture, would take more arrows to finish the jump.

 

Also think non-reusable arrows on ai kill is probably a good idea. Broadheads are cheap and abundant. If you use them to take down an ai they should be spent.

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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Actually it is possible to disable the "last arrow sticking in dead ai" behaviour via a spawnarg. I didn't do that in my FM's as it was never used elsewhere and would be inconsistent. Anyways, the idea of haing an AI stunned in their tracks when shooting on them (independent from where you've hit) is a good idea IMHO. It provides a good possibility to flee if things gone wrong and the player has ran out of flashbombs.

 

For the screaming thingy. I thinks AI should always scream for assistance when approaching the player, not just when they've been hit. Anything that discourages the player to go into an ambush is good IMHO.

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

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I like the cry/shriek idea. Personally I think that players should have the possibility to take out enemies one by one as long as they are careful doing so. I'd liked the original thief approach, which made it impossible to kill an alerted ai with one shot.

 

I must say that I dislike the arrow breaks randomly idea. Such things may only distract the players.

 

Ducking: If the reaction time is long enough so it only takes effect on long ranges I guess it would make sense to do so.

 

In addition the AI could hold their weapon (sword or hammer or whatever) in a way when approaching the player, that makes it hard to actually hit the face. What we also could think about is some sort of focusing time. This would go into the direction of the arrow spree as Tels mentioned it. The bow is "swinging" a bit as you aim and this swinging slowly settles down after a while. Thus would provide enough precision to take out unalerted guards over quite a fair distance but would it make harder to go into rambo style.

 

Hm, yes, the "let the bow settle" sounds good to me, actually I like it. Nobody can take up a bow and hold it perfectly still, so this would also add to the realism. Maybe it should not be a "sway" but more a "comes down from top (and sways a little to the sides left/right)". Basically, if you draw the bow, you still have,during the draw, the arrow point around, and it only settles after you are done drawing.

 

Then after a while, you tire and it starts to sway again.

 

Don't like the idea with the random breaking, either, because for long range planned shots, that would be annoying as you can't predict it.

 

The idea with the weapon is something to consider, too, but it might require animations and so on and thus be hard to actually implement.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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make the AI cry/shriek really really loud, so if you shoot someone in the face, they run around for 1..2 seconds screaming on top of their lungs (in the video he passes a guy on an arched door, then gets spotted and hits the incoming two guys in the head. Neither the 2 beggars nor the guard he just passed care

 

Pain barks already propogate to AI (the beggars are not friends so they don't care, and the other guard was probably already alerted by seeing the body). So I don't know that this would gain us much. When AI hear a pain bark or see a dead body, they head for that spot, so it doesn't necessarily make them more likely to find the player.

 

n addition the AI could hold their weapon (sword or hammer or whatever) in a way when approaching the player, that makes it hard to actually hit the face.

 

Yes, I had a similar idea that we had originally planned to implement, but never got to:

 

Defensive Charge

 

When AI are under attack by Arrows, they will either take cover or charge at the player. When charging, they will play a "defensive charge" animation, where they raise their left arm to shield their face. This will keep the player from getting a easy shot at their face (for extra damage) when they are running towards them.

 

Having AI stop while running would be counterproductive, since that would just give the player more time to shoot more arrows.

 

Just upping up the health or dialing the damage the arrow down is probably not easy

 

Actually these things are probably the easiest things to do, though they might have unintended consequences. Reducing the damage done by arrows is a one-line change. Problem is, in order to make it reasonable at the easiest level, it would become extremely difficult on expert. I don't have a huge problem with that, but what I'd actually prefer is have players play with the correct behaviour by default, and let them choose easy if they really want to. Is there any way to overload the default setting on the Main Menu on the next update?

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The idea with the weapon is something to consider, too, but it might require animations and so on and thus be hard to actually implement.

You got a point here.

 

A different (but maybe also time-intensive) approach for the arrow thingy would be to have some kind of breath-holding when shooting. The "use" key may be used for it. I don't know if it is possible to use inventory items when aiming never tried that), but as it isn't realistic either, I think this key is free in this situation. With this approach we had a unprecise in high-speed combat and a precise in long-range-silent-assassin combat situation.

 

Donno. Actually I think the first approach would be easier to implement and should fit the purposes.

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

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Only problem with making the bow more difficult to aim with is that it penalizes the player for nearly EVERYTHING, not just combat. Shooting out lights, firing a rope arrow at a distant beam, etc, all become more difficult. Given how many people complained about how difficult aiming was, to the point of needing a bow aimer option, I doubt this would be popular.

 

(not to mention that it also penalizes players who are hiding the in the shadows and shooting an AI unaware, which is actually supposed to be a valid way to play).

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The first approach (having the arrow moving a bit but settling down after a while) doesn't make it actually more difficult when it comes down to shooting out torches or so. He just had to wait a sec. I mean the calm down time doesn't have to be extremely long, maybe just a second or so. It wouldn't affect the player if he is going to shoot out a light at long distaces and on short he has not to aim that good. Shooting moss arrows normally also doesn't has the need of high precision.

 

I mean waiting isn't something that should discourage someone playing a stealth game, isn't it. :smile:

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FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

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You're spot on, and I was thinking the exact same thing as I watched that video earlier. Even if you alert a guard, you can just hit him in the face and down him as he charges at you. It doesn't even cost you anything, because you can collect your arrow from the guard afterwards. There should be more of a penalty when he is alerted.

--- War does not decide who is right, war decides who is left.

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Pain barks already propogate to AI (the beggars are not friends so they don't care, and the other guard was probably already alerted by seeing the body). So I don't know that this would gain us much. When AI hear a pain bark or see a dead body, they head for that spot, so it doesn't necessarily make them more likely to find the player.

 

I didn't mean the second guard that was coming behind the first and also died, but the one the player passed a few seconds earlier. Shouldn't he get alerted, too?

 

Speaking of the beggars, maybe we should revisit reactions of neutral AI in this case. You see someone shot in the head and then - you just sit on your bottom and warm your hands on the fire? Shouldn't they at least be concerned of them being the next one that gets shot?

 

Actually these things are probably the easiest things to do, though they might have unintended consequences. Reducing the damage done by arrows is a one-line change. Problem is, in order to make it reasonable at the easiest level, it would become extremely difficult on expert. I don't have a huge problem with that, but what I'd actually prefer is have players play with the correct behaviour by default, and let them choose easy if they really want to. Is there any way to overload the default setting on the Main Menu on the next update?

 

When I wrote "easy" I didn't mean the technical challange (it is rather easy) but the unintended consequences it has elsewhare. Basically you have only one number to change, and changing it to make headshots harder changes everything else, too.

 

As for the setting, it might be difficult to detect whether player have combat difficulty on "easy" because they wanted to, or because it was the default. We don't currently have the ability to differentiate between these two states. Only thing we can do is make "Easy" more hard for everyone (or at least in some cases, like headshots).

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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The first approach (having the arrow moving a bit but settling down after a while) doesn't make it actually more difficult when it comes down to shooting out torches or so. He just had to wait a sec. I mean the calm down time doesn't have to be extremely long, maybe just a second or so. It wouldn't affect the player if he is going to shoot out a light at long distaces and on short he has not to aim that good. Shooting moss arrows normally also doesn't has the need of high precision.

 

I mean waiting isn't something that should discourage someone playing a stealth game, isn't it. :smile:

 

Yeah, that's my thinking, too. If you want to shoot a torch out, you don't need to aim precisely, unless the torch is far away - but then you are not in a hurry, either.

 

The situation "shoot torch out because it is where Ineed to go NOW to avoid the approaching guard" will still be fine even with an initial settle time, because you can still shoot the ceiling/wall without having to aim for a specific pixel. Likewise for other shots - you just have to wait a second.

 

Edit: The "hold your breath" idea sounds fine, too, but then, the player could just spam this key in combat, too. It also might be more complicated to implement for little gain, and the players need to learn another thing. With the "initial settle time" it works automatic, which means it is actually easier for newbies - otherwise they might miss completely that you can "hold your breath to steady the bow". Remember how many people never found out you can shoulder bodies?

 

Btw, I'd also advocate trying out to "unsettle" (by which I mean it should waver a bit again and then settle) the bow when you start walking or turn your head too fast to far. That would still make you being able to shoot torches out (with a little patience, which is actually what we want the player to have, right?), but you couldn't track a guard running towards you with high-speed-high-precision-shoot-his-left-nostril anymore.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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Speaking of the beggars, maybe we should revit reactions of neutral AI i this case. You see someone shot in the head and then - you just sit on your bottom and warm your hands on the fire? Shouldn't they at least be concerned of them being the next one?

Actually even if the person just killed was an enemy, you would most certainly ask yourself where the arrow came from if it wasn't a friend who shot it neither one of the enemies you were fighting against.

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

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Regarding the combat difficulty slider: As I said I never noticed it before neither I did with the lockpick difficulty slider before someone has told me (or someone else and I was just reading it, dunno). But in my little world wouldn't it make more sense to bind such things to the difficulty level choosen by the player? So if you choose a higher difficulty lockpicking and fighting becomes more difficult instead of laying it to the player to adjust all those things for himself (using some sliders he may never notice anyways)? Isn't that what difficulty levels in games are for?

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

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"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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Isn't that what difficulty levels in games are for?

 

This is another big discussion we had internally at one point. I can't remember all the arguments that were presented, but the conclusion was that Difficulty Levels should only affect objectives and map construction, and difficulty sliders (we had planned more) would allow the player to tailor his game difficulty. Imagine if someone really doesn't like lockpicking, but they want to play the mission on the highest difficulty because they like hardcore sneaking. Or someone hates loot hunts so they select Medium, but they want a real challenge from the AI.

 

The first approach (having the arrow moving a bit but settling down after a while) doesn't make it actually more difficult when it comes down to shooting out torches or so. He just had to wait a sec

 

Fair enough. This could probably be tested very easily by just slowing down the animation for raising and aiming the bow.

 

 

Actually even if the person just killed was an enemy, you would most certainly ask yourself where the arrow came from if it wasn't a friend who shot it neither one of the enemies you were fighting against.

 

AI reactions to arrows leave a lot to be desired. AI used to take cover at one point, but now they just stand there looking around as you shoot at them.

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the conclusion was that Difficulty Levels should only affect objectives and map construction, and difficulty sliders (we had planned more) would allow the player to tailor his game difficulty.

 

On that note, wtf is this? It looks to me like it DOES affect AI stats according to the difficulty chosen.

 

tdm_difficulty_default.def

/**

* greebo: These are the default difficulty settings.

*

* CAUTION: Do not edit this file manually, let DarkRadiant's Difficulty Editor do the work!

* Also, don't add any other entities to this file, they will be deleted next time

* the editor exports this entityDef.

*/

entityDef atdm:difficulty_settings_default

{

"inherit" "atdm:entity_base"

"editor_displayFolder" "Internal/Difficulty"

 

/*"diff_0_class_0" "atdm:ai_base"

"diff_0_change_0" "health"

"diff_0_arg_0" "60"

 

"diff_0_class_1" "atdm:ai_base"

"diff_0_change_1" "acuity_vis"

"diff_0_arg_1" "+-40"

 

"diff_0_class_2" "atdm:ai_base"

"diff_0_change_2" "acuity_aud"

"diff_0_arg_2" "+-30"

 

"diff_0_class_3" "atdm:ai_builder_forger"

"diff_0_change_3" "health"

"diff_0_arg_3" "+-20"

 

"diff_0_class_4" "atdm:ai_builder_forger"

"diff_0_change_4" "canOperateSwitchLights"

"diff_0_arg_4" "1"

 

"diff_0_class_5" "atdm:ai_builder_forger"

"diff_0_change_5" "attack_accuracy"

"diff_0_arg_5" "+-1"

 

"diff_0_class_6" "atdm:ai_builder_guard"

"diff_0_change_6" "health"

"diff_0_arg_6" "+-10"

 

"diff_0_class_7" "atdm:ai_humanoid"

"diff_0_change_7" "melee_range"

"diff_0_arg_7" "+-10"

 

"diff_0_class_8" "atdm:ai_humanoid"

"diff_0_change_8" "canLightTorches"

"diff_0_arg_8" "0"

 

"diff_1_class_0" "atdm:ai_base"

"diff_1_change_0" "acuity_vis"

"diff_1_arg_0" "+50"

 

"diff_2_class_0" "atdm:ai_base"

"diff_2_change_0" "acuity_vis"

"diff_2_arg_0" "200"

 

"diff_2_class_1" "atdm:ai_citywatch_elite"

"diff_2_change_1" "health"

"diff_2_arg_1" "*0.1"

 

"diff_2_class_2" "atdm:ai_citywatch_elite"

"diff_2_change_2" "melee_range"

"diff_2_arg_2" "*2"*/

}

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Wow, I just found out why it's so easy...on "Normal" difficulty (which is the easiest, and default) all AI HP are modified by -50!! The typical guard has 100 HP, so "Normal" difficulty is cutting HP in half for guards!!

 

By contrast, Expert adds on +35 to HP.

 

For starters, that HP modifier needs to be looked at.

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Testing -35 for "Normal". That seems to still allow one-shot kills if they are unalert, but it takes two or three shots to kill them once alert.

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