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Killing AI with arrows--too easy


Springheel
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Sorry for not reading all of the posts, but my opinion on the subject is that I prefer a fatal condition to the mechanics. Yes, a single arrow can and should kill an unarmoured opponent instantly, but should there be a guarantee that it always does? No. A hit to the neck, throat, head is about 100% kill, anything else is up to fate. All you can rely on are chances, a single arrow to the chest has a very high probability of a kill, but there is no 100% to it, the guy may end up charging at you with three arrows sticking out of his chest. Basically by making it a random event you take away the confidence and security from the player and that makes running around and one-shot-killing everybody a potential risk that the player can't predict the chances of. Either it's risk and win good or lose hard. The third option is what Garrett prefers, stay hidden and don't even risk it, though this has it's own way of a risk, but you take less chances.

 

So you can call me a fatalist and realist. To enforce stealth without to screw up the realism of the combat system is to make combat fatal and unpredictable, for both, the player and the AI. You should know that your sword can kill with one hit, so you should know that you can die in the same manner. You should rely on the power of a single arrow shot, knowing it kills, but also know that you can die by a single arrow as well.

What we create is a situation where the player can decide to go on bow rampage and the chances are really good to have an easy game because an arrow and a single sword hit can kill, mostly, but knowing that being killed is also as easy as to kill and still to win the rampage creates for a more thrilling and intense experience. Stealth is basically like playing it safe, but has it's own kind of risks and intensity and thrill (as we all know).

 

If you implement a system that is highly systematic, where you know they can't kill you as easy as you can kill them, or the other way around, where you know you die easier than them (always), than that allows players to adapt to it and at the end learn to abuse the system. The more fatal and less predictable a system works the less abusive it is and the more "easy game" and "hard game" blend and cards get sorted differently. This is where stealth comes in, because stealth is the answer when everything else seems less of a reliable option. I think that would be a natural way to "enforce" stealth.

Edited by Psychomorph
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It is not really about enforcing stealth gameplay, it should just become a bit more rewarding. I'm not a big friend of randomness I must say. If you engage in fight those fights won't end up the same every time because the player behaves different every time he tries it. Also having some sort of randomness on the possibility of one arrow killing a guard will only cause the player to reload if it fails. In addition if something works the one time and do not work the other time although the player does exactly the same it will only get frustrating to the player.

 

I think it is a bit overseen how rewarding the proposed system is. If you do not alert any guards, you'll be able to take them out one by one. Actually you can even retrieve the used arrow from the corpse. This means you can take out a hundret guards with one single arrow. The absence of this possibility once an AI is alerted is just some sort of punishment. Having this embedded as a fundamental part of the system makes more sense IMHO then laying this into the hands of the mapper. Beneath the fact that it results in extra work it only leads to inconsistencies.

 

I think that what Springheel suggested is still something to be seen as a compromise as it still leaves the possibility for "one strike takedowns".

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

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On topic of game is easy if you have to withhold your tools. I agree. Game should be hard on its own and the player should rely on all his resources to get through.

 

However i really think this is more up to mappers than to the core game. A bow is lethal, mostly undodgeable, and our character wields it with deadly precision, he could not otherwise use it for extinguishing far away flames .. So if you give this character a deadly arrow he will certainly step up to be a good assasin.

 

I have one idea for balancing out broadheads but it could be a dealbreaker for the released maps:

 

The thief should carry only the head of a deadly arrow, he knows he probably should rely on them only at special circumstances so he saves space in the quiver (and noise) by not carrying these pre-attached.

So he carries these arrowheads and he must sacrifice an other type of arrow if he wants to use it, It could be attachable to any arrow types except the water arrow which is not compatible ( too many and not too expensive, so it would lead to the same).

Setting up the arrow takes a 5 sec assembling time.

 

Perfect for those days when you really need a broadhead for some onholy reason, and no more massacres.

 

 

As for swordfight, i allways thought it to be a pointless stress-reliever before a reload.

The character should be a weakling, tough guards should sweep away his block. Expert guards and soldiers gutting him at first contact.

He may be smart but he just isnt cut for this, not to mention the years long training those guards have.

 

A small pointy dagger is all he should need, for cutting off lootbags, and eating the apples :D

 

I think the solution is on mappers, but they know this allready i am sure :)

- either dont give the player a deadly arrow, or penalise with mission failure.

 

- more complex solution is to treat every death with gameplay consequences.

A found out murder (or any found body) in a map should mean that it gets a madhouse in there, extra patrols, secured doors, extra protection on important stuff.

 

-meta game way: make murder regrettable. In Deus ex a hint at how innocent people could be among MJ12's soldiers had me sparing them. :)

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What if a player wants to:

 

- Have AI's melee skill level at maximun;

 

- Have health at a minimun so that one or two blows are all that it takes to end a fight;

 

That wasn't possible before either, so nothing has changed in that regard.

 

It's certainly open for discussion whether HP should be part of Combat Difficulty, or its own slider, or just be left at the defaults for everyone. I can think of merits for all three. But I can guarantee that there isn't going to be a scenario where cutting guard's HP in half is the default setting.

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Why does the game need a healthbar? There should be two outcomes when hit by a weapon - dead or alive. If alive than there can be a couple of injury effects, like heavy breathing and stuff and it is heal-able by potions or maybe even resting. Alive means anything light injury, dead means anything too heavy to continue.

 

Difficulty level through healthbars is nasty with AI. Same guy but suddenly my sword is dull. I'd define difficulty by AI's outfit and equipment. Easy = guys have simple cloth and clubs (easier to kill due to no armour, less dangerous due to worse weaponry). Normal = guys have simple leather armor and better weapons. Hard = plate armour and sword. Of course, that doesn't mean all NPC's suddenly have plate armour. The probability of better equipped opponents raises and is equipped by those you'd expect (guards), some higher ranked thug may have still leather armour and a high tear criminal may still wear his fine garment, but have a better sword.

Basically difficulty would alter the scenario a little bit and in a way that does not really depend on the mission designer that much. Hard simply means tough times and an organized crime gang may invest into their guards and soldiers because of the tough times. Also alertness may be improved, again, because of the tough times scenario. Easy means less tough times and even the city watch guards may be less adjusted to deal with extreme situations and even less attentive. Simple voice lines could support the idea, like when choosing hard a guard may say to himself: "Tough times these days, gotta wear that metal" *knocks on plate*. On normal he may say: "not expecting too much trouble, guess won't be needing heavy garment for this night" *looks around*.

 

Sounds extremely complicated and sure it is too late for TDM as far as it is in development, but technically it would be relatively simple. You'd have each NPC made as they are, but separate armor models in leather and plate design could be put over their torsos. What these things do is simply alter the way damage is inflicted on them. A single sword slash will cut through cloth (easy - to kill), a leather vest may require you a bit more tries (normal difficulty) and plate armour would absorb most of the attacks and you'd need to aim for the head and stuff (hard - to kill). The level of armour would be a direct indication of what damage you can expect to inflict. You'd think before taking action, unlike being confronted by that cook in the kitchen who has a double-health weekend. Spice in the soup would be that some opponents would visibly become harder to deal with, while others not that much (may still become more dangerous due to better weapon). You'd use tactics and observation. On the other hand heavier armoured opponents may be slower at chasing you down the street, so there's a little natural balance in place. Speaking of "natural balance", that's basically the my whole point, but this is something that a game need to be build with from ground up, hard to add it afterwards I guess.

 

 

I am taking it a bit too far, am I not? Anyway, let's move on... :D

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Difficulty level through healthbars is nasty with AI. Same guy but suddenly my sword is dull. I'd define difficulty by AI's outfit and equipment. Easy = guys have simple cloth and clubs (easier to kill due to no armour, less dangerous due to worse weaponry). Normal = guys have simple leather armor and better weapons. Hard = plate armour and sword. Of course, that doesn't mean all NPC's suddenly have plate armour. The probability of better equipped opponents raises and is equipped by those you'd expect (guards), some higher ranked thug may have still leather armour and a high tear criminal may still wear his fine garment, but have a better sword.

The mapper can already do this, although it is a bunch of work. You should also keep in mind that the quality of the equipment has also to do with the wealth of the persons they are guarding. In the proposed way all guards would be killable with one arrow as long as they are unalerted. It only makes a difference once they are alerted. Increasing HP of AI for difficulty reasons is a common method used over all the years in almost all games. I don't see anything bad about it, especially as the fighting isn't really a core part of the game IMHO.

Why does the game need a healthbar? There should be two outcomes when hit by a weapon - dead or alive. If alive than there can be a couple of injury effects, like heavy breathing and stuff and it is heal-able by potions or maybe even resting. Alive means anything light injury, dead means anything too heavy to continue.

It's a game. I have no problem with the health bar and would leave it as it is. Sometimes it can happen that you are surprised by a guard and get a slash in you back. Instant dead in such a situation would only be frustrating. I don't see any point in "resting" either. How did you imaginate this. You are robbing a tomb, get injured by a trap and than lay inside a sarcophagus to take a rest. :smile:

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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Proceed with caution. I've skimmed through here and seen more talk of artificial devices like making the bow say more. The bow does sway a bit already, which makes longer distance kills more challenging. From what I've read, it sounds like a big issue was the health point settings and the combat difficulty settings in the menu being set to an easier setting by default.

 

An arrow to the head should probably still be an instant kill, regardless of whether the guard is alert but anywhere else on the body should be fair game.

 

Just don't get too crazy. Keep the solution simple and even handed. If we can keep existing play styles and harder core playstyles happy with the menu settings, I think that's the way to go.

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There always seems to be some balance between realism and not realism in TDM, although I've often wondered the challenge of the game if all the constraints are based on reality... but that discussion has happened before in quite a few places....

 

So to the original discussion about arrows being too accurate ( for me, I am impressed how well I can shoot a head shot from an incredible distance... pixel accuracy it was called here). OK, so I wanted to dip into the real world of archery and see relative accuracy of archers. Very difficult to find, but this may be of interest...

 

https://sites.google...y-is-Not-Normal

 

in summary it says... ( from ~2,000 arrow shots)

 

 

Summary:

 

Analysis of archery shot patterns is consistent with a two dimensional error model where the archer's shots have normally distributed errors in both the horizontal and the vertical. These errors are independent of each other and follow a typical Gaussian pattern centered on the target center. The combination of the errors results in a shot pattern in the shape of a doughnut where maximum shot density occurs away from the target center leaving a hole in the shot density at the target center. The size and depth of the hole is related to the standard deviation of shots in the horizontal and vertical dimensions.

 

So this tells me, even for good archers, they tend to scatter around the bulls-eye, as I would have expected, TDM is kinda outside this reality ...as my shots are always perfect...well 97% of the time - no doughnut hole for me! It would be good to have some deviation of arrow accuracy as the distance increases..... guess this would be a mathematical model. -yes, more work, I know...

 

m

Edited by Mr M
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@Mr M:

 

Good post. I tried thew shooting range in TDM yesterday and I believe the arrows arc too much. I'm not close to an expert, so it's just my subjective impression, means I could be horribly wrong, but I believe I'm not, perhaps. Also, as stated in my previous posts, I'm against upping healthbars or weakening the effect of arrows. An arrow should be an arrow, deadly and dangerous. But, as Mr M suggested, I think that "human error" and also the fact that you can't perfectly predict whether a single arrow is enough to kill or not, both should be some sort of counter-balance to the deadliness and effectivity of the bow and arrow.

 

Fireing up to five perfectly placed arrows at an enemy and seeing him still feeling good is a ridiculous experience, many games have this and I hate each single time of it, but seeing how you miss and the guy comes closer and when close enough for a hit, two arrows ricochet off his armor and you know you have to rethink your approach and eventually run away, this is more real and creates for a more authentic experience.

 

I guess many gamers don't give this stuff much thought and are much more tolerant to all sort of ridiculousness seen in games, because these are games, but to me, having experienced better designs and mechanics than that (many of them in Thief that is), I just can't go back to the sh#tty stuff and thus cannot enjoy many games, be it old or new. Kinda stick to what I like (among them is TDM, of course). So, forgive me for being such a hardliner. :rolleyes:

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Interesting findings...but strange. When I tweaked the bow and arrows way back, I added more sway to the bow firing animation so that the further the shot, the more deviation there would be. If these findings are as accurate as I'm reading, then it sounds like something changed because I didn't tweak it to be that accurate.

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It's difficult to say what degree of inaccuracy is going to be liked by players.

 

I like the 2-3 second sway idea at the beginning of the shot because it really doesn't change much. It simply slows you down a bit so you don't have semi-automatic bow anymore. If you are just slightly patient you still have the same accuracy as you are used to.

 

It doesn't require doing anything more than fix ai health bugs. (and that's only because something seems amiss there)

 

it doesn't require changing damage....

 

it's pretty simple, pretty realistic and basically solves the issue.

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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Agreed with your first proposal, that adjusting the rate will stop rapid fire and go a long way in solving any unbalance there might be (even though Im still not convinced this would be desirable - right now it is very hard to get a clean shot at a charging ai from rest position in most common map spaces (closed rooms), let alone kill more than one before they reach you, but I havent watched the video that started the conversation, Im basing it on my experience);

 

I do have doubts about the health levels bug, though - it is my feeling that the default level has always felt quite balanced and natural. Like I said before, putting it on higher levels was distracting and annoying, ai are not harder, just stronger (in a superhuman way). Considering you need 1 hit to the head, 1-2 to the body, several to the limbs, to take down lower enemies, and that it is probably doubled against chainmail guys (elite guards and builder guards are very hard to fight with all those plates), what exactly is thought to be wrong with this set up? Was it not the intention for it to be similar to the current situation? Im forgetting the headshot arrow problem here and thinking about the consequences to melee in general if all health levels are changed.

Edited by RPGista
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what exactly is thought to be wrong with this set up?

 

What's wrong with the setup is that AI are too easy to kill. AI that should have 100 HP instead have only 50. Watch the sword run of the Siege Shop and tell me if this seems to jive with a game that says, "You're a thief, not a warrior."

 

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Agreed with your first proposal, that adjusting the rate will stop rapid fire and go a long way in solving any unbalance there might be (even though Im still not convinced this would be desirable - right now it is very hard to get a clean shot at a charging ai from rest position in most common map spaces (closed rooms), let alone kill more than one before they reach you, but I havent watched the video that started the conversation, Im basing it on my experience);

 

But that's exactly the point! You should not be able to headshot multiple onrushing AI, esp. no in close quarters, because that throws the whole "fighting more than one AI is a sure-fire way to die (for the player!)" idea out of the window.

 

It was always the motto that you can win against one AI, survive against two and if there are more then two you have to run fast. Headshoting multiple AI in fast succesion just is not what TDM is about.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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What's wrong with the setup is that AI are too easy to kill. AI that should have 100 HP instead have only 50. Watch the sword run of the Siege Shop and tell me if this seems to jive with a game that says, "You're a thief, not a warrior."

 

Wow, what a massacre! Didn't knew it was that bad, guy didn't use a single health potion but took down 30+ AI?

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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Wow, what a massacre! Didn't knew it was that bad, guy didn't use a single health potion but took down 30+ AI?

 

+1! That was hideous! Good thing we have this video as big evidence that something is wrong, big thanks to whoever recorded it.

Okay, the mission is dark so the player can always run to the enemy without been seen.

 

One thought this provokes is this: if the player runs at a non-alert guard, the player should make enough noise that by the time the player reaches the AI, the AI is alert, facing the sound and wielding his weapon, ready to defend himself.

 

Dying-in-combat barks (that alert nearby friends) should be louder.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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Dying-in-combat barks (that alert nearby friends) should be louder.

Maybe also the footstep volume when running.

Wow, what a massacre! Didn't knew it was that bad, guy didn't use a single health potion but took down 30+ AI?

With a bow it is even easier. Once took out 20 AI in a map with thre arrows or so. :smile:

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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Not trying to be a d**k here, havent watched the video either (on mobile), but again I must ask, if the player is fixed in killing every AI, by surprise or by rushing them or by headshots, whats the difference from doing the same with the blackjack and sneaking key, KOing everyone with the same impunity? I dont know where you guys got the idea that the thief is too frail to fight, combat in Thief is tactical and you can master it, being able to win fights with anyone. Fights are a reasonable way of advancing, as long as there no consequences for it (alarming people around you). You are supposed to be able to take down any given ai with ease - you are invisible in dark areas (most of the maps), silent to them and carry weapons. I think the main problem is not that ai is too vulnerable, but more of a gameplay thing - leave ai alone in pitch black rooms and you are asking for them to get taken out.

 

- Higher alert and skirmish sounds have been suggested and are worth experimenting with, imo.

 

- Some sounds, like death cries, should entice more than a "investigate" reaction, it should be an alarmed charge like when a fleeing ai brings back rushing guards (they come prepared).

 

- Death cries should be louder, and that would be distinction between KOs and Kills - you are much safer doing the first, because killing is noisy and will alert everyone around.

 

But these suggestions will only work if mappers dont forget to create tight networks where ai can back each other and are close enough to get alerted by any victims, so it remains a map design issue almost entirwly, in my eyes.

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The difference between your bow and your blackjack (however you interpret that ;) ) is that the bow is a ranged weapon. Most current maps have a relative loose AI network and are relatively dark or use a high amount of extinguishable lights what makes blackjacking everyone not a big issue, that's true. But that is more a matter of map design. What we are discussing here is a basic gameplay element.

 

No one says that it should not be possible to take out an AI with a single shot to the head. What's been said is that the player should not be able to engage in an open combat with several AI ... and survive this. There have to be some mechanics that actually give you a benefit when sneaking. If ambushes are faster and easier, why should one attempt to sneak?

 

- Death cries should be louder, and that would be distinction between KOs and Kills - you are much safer doing the first, because killing is noisy and will alert everyone around.

I second that. In addition there should be a difference depending on whether the AI was alerted (so you really have killed here in a fight) or not (a headshot out of the dark).

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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If ambushes are faster and easier, why should one attempt to sneak?

 

Exactly, why? Sneaking is a "tool" to advance in the map, just as combat is, the sword, the bow, the other items, are all there to help you get the job done, one way or the other. None should be prefered, and situations and their solutions should be designed and accounted for by the mapper. In my mission there are at least two situations where confrontation IS the designed course of action (though you can always sneak by).

 

As for arrows, I think I already said enough about it.

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if the player is fixed in killing every AI, by surprise or by rushing them or by headshots, whats the difference from doing the same with the blackjack and sneaking key, KOing everyone with the same impunity?

 

Neither one of them is supposed to be trivially easy. But running around butchering all the AI is not exactly the kind of gameplay that stealth games try to promote. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't be able to do it (I'm against no kill objectives for that very reason), but that the game shouldn't _encourage_ you to do it, by making it the easiest option.

 

I dont know where you guys got the idea that the thief is too frail to fight, combat in Thief is tactical and you can master it, being able to win fights with anyone.

 

No one ever said the thief was too frail to fight. However, TDM clearly takes the position (stated in our design documents and multiple other places) that the player is a thief, not a warrior, and that you should not expect to be able to take on multiple guards at once and win. You are primarily trained in stealth, not combat, and our design decisions have always reflected that.

 

You are supposed to be able to take down any given ai with ease

 

I don't know where you get this idea. AI are your primary (often only) obstacle in the game. If you can take them down "with ease", then the game becomes pretty boring.

 

 

But these suggestions will only work if mappers dont forget to create tight networks where ai can back each other and are close enough to get alerted by any victims,

 

You really should watch the video. He bursts into a room full of 3 armed and armoured guards, and massacres all three while taking only a single hit. How many AI should mappers have to place to stop that from happening?

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- Death cries should be louder, and that would be distinction between KOs and Kills - you are much safer doing the first, because killing is noisy and will alert everyone around.

 

There is already a difference in sound. KOs make no noise, quiet kills (by surprise) make little noise, and alert kills make the most. Are AI not reacting to death cries properly?

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Maybe the volume for the latter (alert kills) could be increased a bit. It really depends on the guard density in a map.

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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Maybe also the footstep volume when running.

 

With a bow it is even easier. Once took out 20 AI in a map with thre arrows or so. :smile:

 

Only footstep volume propogated to the ai.

 

---

He does massacre fairly easy in that vid. at first he is on grass and charges from the dark. So he should be pretty silent, he even made it a point to charge from an ai's shadow. The first guy goes down with one sword hit, maybe that should be, he was unalert and looked like a peasant (at quick glance). However, the second guy is alert and also goes down with one sword hit a second later. Now maybe he is not ramping up quick, maybe he is just too weak. Obviously Springheel pointed out an error in the HP of AI.

 

But when he charges into a room full of guards and only takes one hit yeah something's wrong.

 

The guy on the toilet was funny though. But still, he was sitting in full light and the player runs in, alerts him and he still goes down in one hit. It seemed like only a few of them even took more than one hit to kill anyway. Just wayyy to easy.

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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