Killing AI with arrows--too easy

[RPGista]

Ok, saw the sword run video and have some comments, but this is another discussion altogether:

 

- Rushing from the shadows and killing AI before they can react is a reasonable way of "stealth killing" and Ive also done it quite a few times. I have alerted before, when people were discussing how difficult it was to blackjack in TDM, that I thought it was actually way too easy to walk down ai without ever alerting them fully, coming from very far, normal walk, on bascily any terrain type (aside from metal and tile I think), ai will hear you but wont get alerted enough to turn = easy KO/Kill (you can easily test this in the blackjack trainihng map). That is something that happens here quite a lot, even running is allowed as the point is to hack them and not to KO from behind.

 

- It becomes clear to me that the alert system is flawed in these situations. Most of the killed are archers and a few unarmed, that is to be expected as they cant defend themselves against a sword, but you can clearly see several times ai getting injured and killed by a running player, 2 meters away from another patrolling one, and they WONT hear it and react at all (maybe just a couple of comments). Death cries should be instant alerts of the ultimate level and be quite wide. If that were the case, in the room with the steam bot, he wouldnt be able to kill one, then kill another one a few steps away that wasnt even alerted by the first, and then come back to the room and the guard beihnd the bars is still sitting there calmly, as if nothing had happened (only a few meters from him). I also alerted about this before, that ai seems to have a hard time getting alerted by other ai's alert barks, even at small distances.

 

- Some of the ai seemed to have trouble going from rest to combat stance, they seemed to get confused by the player's distancing and strafing, taking to long to just draw the sword and defend themselves.

 

All of this has nothing to do with health. Almost all hits were headshots, guards with helmets were harder to kill as you would expect, and civillians/unprotected ai were killed quickly, as you would expect. The problem is the timing untill ai is able to defend themselves, how easy it is to close distance before they even turn around and acknowledge your presence, and how difficult it is for other ai to hear each other and spot the player/menace (the very dark environments dont help them at all), their reaction time seems off and they have a hard time working together to surround and face the player. This is a different conversation though, maybe a good one to have also.

Edited February 2, 2013 by RPGista

[AluminumHaste]

What's wrong with the setup is that AI are too easy to kill. AI that should have 100 HP instead have only 50. Watch the sword run of the Siege Shop and tell me if this seems to jive with a game that says, "You're a thief, not a warrior."

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxU7zQxa9o8

 

I just watched the video, and I can't understand why his AI aren't reacting at all, I've never been able to run up to AI like that, especially getting into a sword fight in a room with 4 AI and not have 2 of them notice.

Especially of concern is when he goes into the forge area to steal the plans, he kills the smith, and the designer runs away screaming for help. The AI up on the platform 5 feet away doesn't even notice. Something is wrong with his install or he's gimped the AI.

However, I have to say he is very well practiced at killing our AI with headshots.

[Obsttorte]

There is definetely a need for a readjustment of the sound volumes caused by some of the player actions. Especially running and AI dying barks are far too silent, so I second that.

 

The map is in fact relatively dark. The problem is that most maps tend to go into that direction, so the game mechanics have to pay its tribute to that.

 

- Some of the ai seemed to have trouble going from rest to combat stance, they seemed to get confused by the player's distancing and strafing, taking to long to just draw the sword and defend themselves.

I've seen this quite often and I guess it's a pathfinding problem. This can happen especially if there is not much room for the AI to navigate. Another possibility is the low amount of light in this specific mission, that probably causes the AI to loose track. For the latter I already suggested to increase the visibility much more when moving as it is in the current setup. I think if you are running with a weapon in your hand your visibility should be at roughly 50% to make sure the AI definetely recognizes you.

 

A last point to the one strike kills. If and only if we would stick to the reality/leave the player all options on how to play/Call of Duty approach, it would only be fair if the AI has the same chances as the player have. Thus meaning that especially the elite guards, as they are ELITE, should be able to take out the player with one strike. Maybe also bowmen should be able to do so. (Please take yourself some minutes to think about if this would be enjoyable for the player).

 

So let's do a summary:

• The noise caused by the player needs some tweeking. This affects AI dying barks as well as movement noises (as already discussed in other threads)
  
• Slightly increasing the AI's health so alerted guards can not be taken out with one headshot. I guess one headshot + one bodyshot is fine. This would guarantee that the player at least looses one broadhead arrow when alerting a guard. Unarmed AI may be taken out with one shot even if alerted.
  
• I would apply the same to melee if possible.
  
• The bow should need some time to "focus"
  
• Sounds are not propagated to the AI if they are caused by someone from the same team (this does exclude barks). So the AI may not hear there comrades fall. If this is the case this should be tweaked. If done so it would make a difference if you take out an AI on a "silent" surface (wood for example) in difference to a "loud" surface (metal, tile)
  

As far as I recognized it most people here seem to agree to that.

 

A further note: Someone (I forgot who) has mentioned he is designing a map were the player actually gets into the position that he have to fight. The person may already know, but it is possible to adjust the AI's health using the difficulty editor.

[Springheel]

Sounds are not propagated to the AI if they are caused by someone from the same team (this does exclude barks). So the AI may not hear there comrades fall

 

There is a tracker entry for this already. Tels tried to do it but couldn't get ragdoll sounds to propogate to AI.

 

The noise caused by the player needs some tweeking. This affects AI dying barks as well as movement noises (as already discussed in other threads)

 

I've had a nagging feeling that the AI have been hard of hearing for a while now. AI death barks are set at a volume of 58, which is louder than a fire arrow. They should be hearing it easily.

[Obsttorte]

There is a tracker entry for this already. Tels tried to do it but couldn't get ragdoll sounds to propogate to AI.

That's bad.

I've had a nagging feeling that the AI have been hard of hearing for a while now. AI death barks are set at a volume of 58, which is louder than a fire arrow. They should be hearing it easily.

That's bad, too.

[AluminumHaste]

Another thing I've noticed about AI; When an AI is going through a door that he has opened, if you attempt and fail a blackjack/sword attack, he will bark, but then won't switch to combat until after he's gone through the door way and turned around to close it.

I'm not sure it always works though, will have to look into it more tonight.

If I have time I'll upload a video of it.

[Tels]

Exactly, why? Sneaking is a "tool" to advance in the map, just as combat is, the sword, the bow, the other items, are all there to help you get the job done, one way or the other. None should be prefered, and situations and their solutions should be designed and accounted for by the mapper. In my mission there are at least two situations where confrontation IS the designed course of action (though you can always sneak by).

 

Nobody said you can't fight or kill AI. But it shouldn't be an equal option (or even possible) to go on a rampage and kill everyone in one run. Even fighting 2 or 3 guards at a time should be non-survivable. This is one of the fundamental design goals of TDM and a "sneaker" or "stealth" game. Please don't try to redefine what TDM is about

[Tels]

About increasing the loudness/alertness factor of running + sword:

 

I'd not up the running footsteps - sometimes you need to run away in the dark, and that shouldn't be broken. (How good the AI hears you needs to be tested, but we probably shouldn't make this louder). Likewise for taking out your sword: sometimes you need to wait in the shadows for the AI to pass to ambush them.

 

However, the combination (running with your sword, and esp. running with your sword drawn) should make the player more louder (if possible?) and more visible (that is probably easy). Also, maybe add one more lightgem level, if you draw your sword back (it might glint in the light when held high?)

 

Edit: This gets a bit off-topic, we where talking about death-by-lone-arrow here.

[Tels]

There is a tracker entry for this already. Tels tried to do it but couldn't get ragdoll sounds to propogate to AI.

 

This only covers ragdolls sounds - e.g. when the dead body falls down. I get the feeling Obsttorte was talking about "death cries" and "I'm hurt" cries not getting propagated to the AI of the same team.

[Obsttorte]

Actually I meant both.

[RPGista]

Right now in TDM you can:

 

A- clean out every ai in a map by snipping (headshots) with steel arrows;

 

B- by killing them with the sword (by surprise or open combat);

 

C- by sneak+blackjack, KOing everyone;

 

The solutions proposed:

 

A- reduce rate of fire, increase ai health;

 

B- increase ai health;

 

C- none;

 

My opinion is that changing health levels isnt the best solution. It might make it harder for B, but wont help with A or C.

 

I would probably suggest addressing different issues if possible:

 

A- decrease rate of fire to a reasonable amount, tweak alert sounds reach;

 

B- allow for better/faster ai reaction time for drawing weapons (a simple example is to make ai immune to pain anim when hit while drawing, the ai stops and has to start over while the player is hacking away), tweak alert sounds reach;

 

C- solve the problem where ai cant get fully alerted by the aproaching player (standing upright) in almost any floor type; make ai able to hear the player even when crouching, unlike now where they simply cant hear him in normal floortypes (doesnt need to creep).

Edited February 3, 2013 by RPGista

[pusianka]

This whole beautiful discussion reminded me of one sweet game that just doesn't give a crap about arrow shooting system . This game is of course - Gothic! You hid behind the tree bro? Well arrow doesn't give a fuck, it can go around the tree AND YOU CAN ACTUALLY SEE IT! xDDDDD

[Mr M]

For the lone arrow to be used again and again... can it be "set to" break after hitting the target eg., feather portion of the arrow broken off, rest remains in the body. Can pick up the arrow again, but is unusable......

[Obsttorte]

Why would you want to pick up an unusable arrow. Anyways, the behaviour can be disabled by the mapper. The problem is, that as it is used in all FM's so far it would be inconsistent and people would complain about it.

[Baddcog]

Well, rethinking arrows... They were pickable in Thief so I never thought about it myself.

 

It does seem to be unnecessary for the most part. Typically broadheads are quite abundant and cheap in the store. Players loadout usually has them, they can be found scattered around maps...

 

I wouldn't mind seeing that function removed.

 

Of course that would also require checking every single map to make sure it wouldn't break them (is it possible a map has only one arrow and you are required to use it multiple times? - doubt it)

[Springheel]

I'm not sure what would be gained by removing that feature.

[Baddcog]

The lack of players being able to clear an entire mission using very few arrows... reality... better stealth/difficulty.

 

What would be lost by losing that feature?

[Sotha]

Removing the arrow pickup option is not the solution to anything. It is just removing a feature, without any benefit.

 

The problem is not the abundance of the arrows (they are dead cheap anyway and very common loot object in barracks). The problem is the accuracy of the bow and/or too easily killable AI.

 

Leave the arrows be and fix the real problem.

[Obsttorte]

I guess this can be seconded. If it will be only possible to take out a guard with one arrow when he is unalerted, I guess the player has earned it himself to get his arrow back. On the other side I would not miss that feature. And as said, if mappers don't like it they can just turn it off.

[Psychomorph]

We need a better plan.

[RPGista]

What's the point of sneaking, or even KOing, when you can do this:

 

http://www.youtube.c...YjzPPCKhyg

13:44 (and multiple other places)

 

 

So I just watched the part of the video mentioned and a couple of other occasions and never saw the player dropping more than 2 enemies at a time. In the first situation he is quite far from the guards so it took skills, he had plenty of distance between them; at the beginning of p4, he is able to kill two guards in rapid succession and that shows that the bow drawing might indeed be a bit too fast, the first one on the back of the head was a pretty good shot below the helmet, but the guards were like 3-4 meters away and he was able to fire two arrows before the second one could get to him.

[RPGista]

I think it would be preferable to have (a small) spray cone feature (while firing from "the waist") that would gradually become pin-point accuracy again in full zoom (that might need to make the time till full zoom shorter, though), than take power away from arrows. It would possibly add some fun - considering a small spray cone of course, you would still hit the AI by firing immediately, but you wont be able to tell for sure if it will hit the face, or the helmet, or even the neck/chest area, or miss by a few inches. The guard is charging, you can fire, miss, drop the bow and draw the sword.

Edited February 5, 2013 by RPGista

[AluminumHaste]

That's a good idea. You don't even need an indicator in the gui to show that either. When the player draws an arrow the bow and arrow move around, and slowly get more steady. This should only take about 2 seconds to go from unsteady to steady.

[Springheel]

We need a better plan.

 

The original problem has already been fixed. We can of course discuss other ways to make AI tougher if we want.

[Sotha]

Great! Can you describe how it was fixed? With that info, we can finally close this thread, which is starting to repeat itself and spin out of control.

 

Discussions on improved AI toughness could go in its own thread?