Thief 4 is trash.

[jtr7]

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Edited February 19, 2014 by jtr7

[jtr7]

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Edited February 19, 2014 by jtr7

[Vae]

OK, but you have to admit the stealth in Thief will better than those other titles

 

Not by much.

 

they may have a low-fidelity feedback system (I assume you're talking about the trinary light gem and Shroud combo)

 

Yes, that's a compact term to explain the binary Shroud, and the trinary Light-only Gem (if used)...Collectively or separate, they constitute a low-fidelity feedback system, because of their crude and limited function.

 

but the other games mentioned have no feedback system at all.

 

Right...but what limited feedback there is in NuThief, is very basic...so I don't see how that will produce anything close to the superior stealth experience of classic THIEF and TDM...NuThief is outclassed, on this core feature alone.

 

I never said stealth would be at the level of the originals (I said the opposite, actually), just that it would be better than these other make-believe stealth games.

 

You said...

it's still going to be far better stealthwise than games like Dishonored, Hitman, DXHR and Skyrim

 

I'm not trying to be a stickler, I'm just informing you that the "far better" is inaccurate.

 

Let's put it this way...On a scale of 1-10, qualified as an overall depth of stealth experience, I'd give Dishonored a 4, classic THIEF an 8, and TDM a 9...and I would estimate that NuThief will be a 5, maybe a 6 if we're lucky.

 

Stealth in DXHR/Dishonored etc was strictly line-of-sight - whether you hate the other things they are doing to new Thief or not, you have to admit this system will be a little more complex than simple line-of-sight stealth.

 

Right...Stealth in Dishonored is line-of-sight, which also has a "stealth mode" (crouching) that makes you silent.

 

And don't forget, you also have AI able to detect Garrett's movement speed and how he walks on different types of surfaces. Other things that these recent games before it were lacking.

 

That's only partially true, due to the fact that the "move silently challenge" will mainly be limited to "noise patches" on the surface-scape...and even these will be cancelled out for the most part, due to the auto-silent Swoop superpower...I'm telling you right now, EM's contextual stealth-action design philosophy won't allow them to slow the game down with forced "tedious" creeping, like classic THIEF and TDM...That's why they implemented Swoop, so the player can Swoop from safe-zone to safe-zone, and bypass a lot of the vulnerable zones with relative ease...It's also probably why they only needed a low-fidelity feedback system, because the player won't actually need anything more than that.

[ezze]

Curiosity, where does the name NuThief come from?

 

Secondly I am missing the main point, why they try to fix what is not broken? Is there an official explanation of the ternary light-gem for example? Or the horrible plain-blue view?

[jtr7]

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Edited February 19, 2014 by jtr7

[ezze]

Too bad, I was hoping in some reasoning like... (Just invented) ""We did not like the light gem because it is always on the screen. The shroud we implemented is 50% opaque when the player is fully visible, but it totally disappears while in total darkness. So most of the time the screen will be totally clean of any hud element for maximum immersion."" Of course you can disagree, but still it has sense.

 

Oh well...

[jtr7]

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Edited February 19, 2014 by jtr7

[Vae]

Ok, it's been clarified by one of the EM people that apparently these scratches are only to indicate where the claw can be used.

 

....And the claw is the auto-tool used for climbing.

 

So that means, now we know where we're allowed to infallibly auto-climb!...

 

 

I'm still in awe of Master Taffer trying to convince everyone over there that 16 stages is overkill, or in his words "useless and redundant."

 

I know...that's really ignorant and hilarious at the same time...Trying to rationalize a regressive, inferior system, is ridiculous.

 

I think T4 is being made just for simpletons like him.

 

Hey, now you're starting to sound just like me...

 

But yes, it's true...NuThief has been designed with the casual gamer in mind...

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

The light gem is just that, an indicator of whether light is hitting the player. Bright = you're in the light. Greyish = you're about to enter light. Dark = you're in the shadows.

 

However, your visibility to the AI is affected by a lot more than light. All those things Brethren mentions are still taken into account: your stance, weapon, movement, whether they're already looking for you...There are so many factors that go into "visibility" that jamming them all into that one indicator would make it nearly useless for the player. ~ Freya

 

Okay, let's take this piece by piece...

 

The light gem is just that, an indicator of whether light is hitting the player. Bright = you're in the light. Greyish = you're about to enter light. Dark = you're in the shadows

 

This is really basic...so basic in fact, that I can't imagine anyone but a child or casual player needing it!...Think about it...this is just a simple, 3-stage light-only indicator, that tells the player the obvious...Is it really that difficult to tell if you're "in the light", "in the shadows", or moving out of a shadow and into the light?... ...Is this game, "Thief for children"?...or just an intentional mockery of the true Visibility Gem?

 

Answer: The NuLightGem is just a tacked-on, crude light meter, so that EM can say "we brought back the light gem...see, we deliver the THIEF DNA everyone".

 

Next...

However, your visibility to the AI is affected by a lot more than light. All those things Brethren mentions are still taken into account: your stance, weapon, movement, whether they're already looking for you...There are so many factors that go into "visibility" that jamming them all into that one indicator would make it nearly useless for the player.

 

First, I'll clear up the "whether they're already looking for you" statement...What she's referring to, is the "Alert Status Indicators" that float above the Ai's heads, if you're silly enough to have them toggled on...She's just confusing systems, and doesn't know any better.

 

...and this last statement..."There are so many factors that go into "visibility" that jamming them all into that one indicator would make it nearly useless for the player."

 

Just shows that she has no idea what she's talking about...That is a completely embarrassing public relations statement.

 

 

Okay, now in regards to "visibility"...As horrific as this sounds, everyone needs to realize that the Shroud is the one and only visibility meter...That means that whatever information that affects the players visibility (light, stance, weapon, movement), is reduced to a simple binary state of "visible" or "invisible" is reduced to a trinary state... ...Now imagine playing THIEF or TDM with the Visibility Gem giving you only completely black (0%) or fully bright (100%) completely black, semi-lit, and fully bright...with a flash to the face when it switches from black to bright black or semi-lit to fully bright...that's the Shroud...except the Shroud surrounds the whole screen. This means that the "Visibility Shroud" hasn't any dynamic range or depth has very little dynamic range or depth, to let the player know what affects what, in any measured quantity or proximity.

 

 

EDIT: After closer inspection, I've discovered among other things, the Shroud is trinary, and not binary.

Edited January 14, 2014 by Vae

[ezze]

However, your visibility to the AI is affected by a lot more than light. All those things Brethren mentions are still taken into account: your stance, weapon, movement, whether they're already looking for you...There are so many factors that go into "visibility" that jamming them all into that one indicator would make it nearly useless for the player.

 

It is so absurd I really wonder if it is serious... The point of the 32 transitions of the lightgem IS to jam all the information. I still remember playing Thief at the time it was new and trying to understand how to become less visible as possible. Near the wall, no weapon, crouching... all was "jammed" in the small icon. I never felt that the lightgem was broken because the alerted or suspicious AI sees better (for I while I though Thief guards could see in the perfect dark if completely angry)...

I.... do not know what to say, it is nonsense.

[Springheel]

As of yet, there has not been a clear answer about what the shroud actually communicates to the player. Does it tell you how lit you are? How visible you are? Whether an AI is actually looking at you? No idea. It's quite possible that the player gets NO feedback about how much his weapon, speed and stance are affecting his visibility.

 

My hunch is that they didn't bother, because hey, you can just look at the icons over the guard's heads and tell whether they're getting suspicious. Who needs a good lightgem if you've got that?

[ezze]

My hunch is that they didn't bother, because hey, you can just look at the icons over the guard's heads and tell whether they're getting suspicious. Who needs a good lightgem if you've got that?

Icons on the head?!? What? Seeing a screaming huge guy with a large hammer running toward me is not enough?!? Ok, this is extreme. But my point is that the AI has behaviors to show how is detecting the player... What is the icon for?

 

 

Oh dear... when I saw the shroud the first time (gameplay video) I actually kinda liked it because I did the reasoning I reported few posts back... but while this thread progresses I feel everything is become more more absurd.

[jtr7]

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Edited February 19, 2014 by jtr7

[Loa4ever]

Stop talking, Eidos-Montreal! Enough with the words! If we can't get a demo in our own hands, please let a gameplay video demo what we are wanting answers to that we still haven't gottn after all these years from you! You sometimes say exactly what we want to hear, but the vids don't corroborate or confirm. Sync up! Well, taffers, this vid about the audio is better than the first one that came out through Corsair, but still far from definitive:

 

I have seen the video but can't stop to think, how far are their lies. Until we got something that shows gameplay rather then teasing us with words, of course if they have any.

[Goldwell]

I really think Thief 4 will be delayed. They haven't released any solid footage of the game in a FINAL state plus they haven't announced the physical editions of the game yet and they haven't even answered half of the questions being asked on the official forums.

 

Its sad when they do a podcast and ask the users to provide questions and barely pick out a few.

 

Also that Gallagher guy, the narrative director or whatever is so fucking arrogant it makes me angry just to hear his voice "clue is in the name" ughh

[jtr7]

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Edited February 19, 2014 by jtr7

[brethren]

Also that Gallagher guy, the narrative director or whatever is so fucking arrogant it makes me angry just to hear his voice "clue is in the name" ughh

 

Maybe it's a Canadian/French thing, but I'm getting that smugness from all these guys:

Stephane Roy

Daniel Windfeld Schmidt

Nic Cantin

Joe Khoury

and b1skit too, even though he's gone

 

Especially Joe Khoury, during that one presentation that he did, he just seemed to talk down to the entire audience. I really would think EM would be horrified that this guy is representing them.

Edited January 13, 2014 by brethren

[Goldwell]

Maybe it's a Canadian thing, but I'm getting that smugness from all these guys:

Stephane Roy

Daniel Windfeld Schmidt

Nic Cantin

Joe Khoury

and b1skit too, even though he's gone

 

Especially Joe Khoury, during that one presentation that he did, he just seemed to talk down to the entire audience. I really would think EM would be horrified that this guy is representing them.

 

I actually like Stephane Roy to be honest but Joe Khoury should not be allowed to go near a crowd... During the video clip he was constantly breathing heavily.. almost like he was ready to jump down their throat or something and then my favorite part of that was definitely this:

 

32:50 in if it doesn't skip to the right part

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=acAxcAEKcOg#t=1977

 

 

Seriously who the hell treats "fans" like that? barking at them for a name... then this guy was just asking an innocent question and Joe was getting all crappy

Edited January 13, 2014 by Goldwell

[Goldwell]

Also another thing I realized.. look at his body language.. crossed arms, looking down so pissed off. Is that really how a professional video game company wants itself to be presented?

 

This Joe guy wouldn't have even passed basic high school drama class with the crap he was pulling off there.

[brethren]

Stephane Roy is probably the least cocky of the group - I think he just annoys me more because every time I hear him speak, I get the feeling he's never actually played Thief before.

Edited January 13, 2014 by brethren

[NIB]

Hi guys! Didn't know there was a discussion here on TDM forum as well

 

Good luck deleting my posts now, Viktoria.^^

 

Stephane Roy is probably the least cocky of the group - I think he just annoys me more because every time I hear him speak, I get the feeling he's never actually played Thief before.

 

I get that feeling with everyone of EM i have seen so far. Nic Cantin is the worst of them to me - some hipster who wanted to make his own AC game.

[Springheel]

I get the same kind of cocky feel from many of them, other than Roy. There have been way too many negative, dismissive comments about the original games for my taste.

[Mr. Tibbs]

I'm certain Joe Khoury's never played the early games. No one on the team ever expands upon their fondness of the series beyond saying "it's great." There's never any love or interesting anecdotes when they talk about Thief, and judging from what's been shown so far, I doubt we'll see much appreciation or understanding of what made the series special in the shipping game. The folks at Arkane have shared more stories about their time with Garrett than Eidos Montreal.

Edited January 14, 2014 by Mr. Tibbs

[jtr7]

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Edited February 19, 2014 by jtr7

[New Horizon]

Maybe it's a Canadian/French thing, but I'm getting that smugness from all these guys:

Stephane Roy

Daniel Windfeld Schmidt

Nic Cantin

Joe Khoury

and b1skit too, even though he's gone

 

Especially Joe Khoury, during that one presentation that he did, he just seemed to talk down to the entire audience. I really would think EM would be horrified that this guy is representing them.

 

Hehe. B1skit was Australian.

[jtr7]

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Edited February 19, 2014 by jtr7