Having trouble with blackjacking? AI seem really hard? (Video)

[AluminumHaste]

Are you having trouble blackjacking the AI in The Dark Mod? Do you hit them in the head yet it always fails? Getting frustrated? Watch this video, which will demonstrate common issue people have with TDM, after playing the Thief series for so long.

 

http://youtu.be/sw5EKIR6Paw

[Springheel]

Nice. We need one like that for combat.

[AluminumHaste]

I'm actually not that good at combat, I always play expert and avoid confrontation, or run away instead of fighting. I mean I'm not bad, I have been playing this game for 8 years or so. But if you're not careful, on Expert 2 hits is all you get then you're dead.

[Moonbo]

One thing I noticed is that if the AI is swiveling its head when you strike them, then you'll most likely fail the blackjack. Maybe it's the sweetspot shifting. Once I realized this, then my success ratio went way up. If I'm not just imagining that, might want to include it in the video.

[Diego]

"that's it Fen" lol

 

The new combat is really tough! It's a good thing though, before 2.0 it was pretty easy, I could beat more than one guard at the same time effortless. Now I get my ass kicked by the lamest guard.

[FenPhoenix]

I think I see where I was going wrong before. I'll have to test my understanding in the next video though.

[Sakonosolo]

It's pretty frustrating if you're just coming from the Thief games because most guards that I've noticed in TDM wear helmets, making it so you can't just go up behind them and bump them in the head. I kind of like it though as it forces me to not just go through and knock everyone in the level out. I have managed to hit people in the face though and knock them out but that's pretty difficult to do. I haven't watched the video yet so maybe some of these things are addressed.

[AluminumHaste]

It's pretty frustrating if you're just coming from the Thief games because most guards that I've noticed in TDM wear helmets, making it so you can't just go up behind them and bump them in the head.

 

Yes watch the video that's a common misunderstanding.

[Diego]

What I don't get (yes, I'm playing TDM for years and I still don't get things) is why hitting high on the head is less effective.

[Sakonosolo]

Cool, I need to practice that. Also catching bodies before they fall like in the video. At least I know it's possible (for both) now.

 

What I don't get (yes, I'm playing TDM for years and I still don't get things) is why hitting high on the head is less effective.

It only matters with helmet guards I think. Most people without helmets can be hit on the head anywhere, but if they have a helmet, hitting them too high on their head will just hit the helmet and do nothing.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Sakonosolo

[Diego]

But that makes little sense. Of course it will hit the helmet, I'm aiming for the head, which is covered by a helmet.

[161803398874989]

Yeah, I had a ton of trouble with blackjacking, but you need to hit like the base of the neck and it'll work.

[Professor Paul1290]

What I don't get (yes, I'm playing TDM for years and I still don't get things) is why hitting high on the head is less effective.

 

If I remember right, the blackjack starts from over your head and swings down in front of you in an arc, and it will "land" on the first physical object it hits.

 

Maybe aiming high causes it to land short or in the wrong place somehow?

 

Aiming at the base of the neck seems to work pretty well, but I know you can aim somewhat lower than that if you can space yourself right as I've done that sometimes to avoid hitting overhead obstacles.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Professor Paul1290

[Al3xand3r]

I didn't know where to put this but since people mentioned combat here I might as well. I like that you're weak and can't run around killing everyone, something that outside mission/difficulty limits was possible in Thief by exploiting AI weaknesses, but at the same time I find combat here is unfair. Enemies don't appear to flinch at all when you hit them so if they've started their own attack animation, even after you started yours, their attack will come through and hit you with no time to block which is a big blow since it only takes a couple hits to kill you. I think most enemies should flinch and cancel their attacks when damaged unless they're special enemies in full plate armor or whatever (in which case you probably shouldn't do damage anyway). This would make one on one fights more viable as a last resort yet more enemies will still be a death sentence and something you want to avoid. Other than that relatively minor issue (it's not a combat game anyway) The Dark Mod seems like the perfect update to the Thief formula outside minor issues barely worth mentioning (like enemy combat animations and climbing camera motion). I can't wait to play more missions

Edited October 12, 2013 by Al3xand3r

[Sotha]

They do flinch. There is a pain animation that occurs occasionally which is long enough to give the player a free guaranteed hit.

 

If you give it more though, you will realize it is totally unfair towards the AI: the player will never flinch and lose actions, the AI does flinch and does lose actions. The player can also benefit from head hits, killing the AI immediately. Face stabs are very effective. The AI never score head hits for the player. (I think.) Unfair!!!

 

What I'd like to see, though, would be minor flinches that do not affect the AI combat ability. They would be nice flavor. But new anims and coding would be needed and the gameplay effect would be non-existant. So there are more important things to do.

[Springheel]

What I don't get (yes, I'm playing TDM for years and I still don't get things) is why hitting high on the head is less effective.

 

Hitting "high on the head" usually means that you're closer to them, and it's easier to accidently swing _past_ their head and hit them with your elbow instead. Also, helmeted guards can only be KO'd from the back of the head, so if you swing too far forward you'll hit the front of their head and fail.

 

One thing you didn't mention is hitting low ceilings, which I've seen mess some people up in a LP. Here's the video I did on the subject:

 

[Al3xand3r]

They do flinch. There is a pain animation that occurs occasionally which is long enough to give the player a free guaranteed hit.

 

If you give it more though, you will realize it is totally unfair towards the AI: the player will never flinch and lose actions, the AI does flinch and does lose actions. The player can also benefit from head hits, killing the AI immediately. Face stabs are very effective. The AI never score head hits for the player. (I think.) Unfair!!!

 

What I'd like to see, though, would be minor flinches that do not affect the AI combat ability. They would be nice flavor. But new anims and coding would be needed and the gameplay effect would be non-existant. So there are more important things to do.

Well it hasn't happened yet in my game. To clarify, I don't want them to flinch every time they get hit and give the player time for additional attacks, I want them to flinch when they get hit during their own attack animation, which means the player started his attack animation first and should cancel theirs (but allow them to block the next one, or start another attack of their own). If it happens then it doesn't happen every time, if not very rarely since I've yet to see it occur after some testing. I'm not opposed to the idea of the player flinching and having his own attack cancelled if he gets hit during its animation which in that case means it was started after the enemy's at the wrong time. As for damage levels, the enemies already kill you in a couple hits, I'm not sure if one hit "headshot" kills would be fair unless the player can achieve that too. Edited October 12, 2013 by Al3xand3r

[Diego]

Hitting "high on the head" usually means that you're closer to them, and it's easier to accidently swing _past_ their head and hit them with your elbow instead. Also, helmeted guards can only be KO'd from the back of the head, so if you swing too far forward you'll hit the front of their head and fail.

 

One thing you didn't mention is hitting low ceilings, which I've seen mess some people up in a LP. Here's the video I did on the subject:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V31S7w4qBcE

 

Elbow and ceiling makes more sense! The trick is to aim for the head while keeping a safe distance

[Mortem Desino]

Elbow and ceiling makes more sense! The trick is to aim for the head while keeping a safe distance

Yep. I remember joyously sprinting up and successfully blackjacking guards on the butt in Thief II , so this is a bit of a transition to make.

[RPGista]

As for damage levels, the enemies already kill you in a couple hits, I'm not sure if one hit "headshot" kills would be fair unless the player can achieve that too.

 

It used to be possible to kill AI with a fatal blow to the head, it felt right and worked great if you felt like personifying an assassin, but appearently you cant anymore. All thanks to some nerd that recorded videos running around and doing nothing but killing guards.

 

Maybe in the future we'll get a setting where everyone is likely to die with a sword blow or two and, why not, combat actions like pulling arrows are slowed down to make it generally harder for the player in confrontations.

 

As for the player getting killed quickly, I dont recall that, maybe you are playing in the hardest setting? I think its a bit more than that, maybe 3-4 hits on normal.

[IHaveReturned]

I'm not particularly happy about the new and difficult blackjacking, especially for a game meant to preserve the spirit of Thief. The very purpose of the overhead knockout is that, traditionally, very few guards could resist it. The moment they wear helmets protecting them from that very attack, the Thief-style overhead blackjacking makes much less sense. It would then be better if it was a diagonal or even horizontal swing meant to hit the neck. Having to adjust your distance so the nonsensical attack strategy will work is just silly. Reminds me of vanilla TDS with its contextual knockouts.

 

I guess it just represents the clash between ignoring the spirit of the inspiration on one hand (making most guards wear helmets), and preserving it on the other (leaving the blackjack swing vertical).

 

I remember this being one of my biggest gripes with the game, and one of the reasons I never managed to keep up my interest in the mod for long at a time.

Edited October 12, 2013 by IHaveReturned

[RPGista]

Guards wearing helmets are a mapper's strategic choice, not something mandated by Dark Mod. They physically protect the wearer, as you would expect, but even then, most helmets allow for a clean KO, unless its one that completely covers the head and neck area. Those special cases can still be overcome in a number of ways, sneaking past, gas arrows, causing noise with noise arrows or throwing stuff around to distract them, heck, you can even KO people by hitting them with heavy objects. So, there are plenty of opportunities to explore in the game, which are often more surprising and fun than the usual route.

Edited October 12, 2013 by RPGista

[Springheel]

It used to be possible to kill AI with a fatal blow to the head, it felt right and worked great if you felt like personifying an assassin, but appearently you cant anymore.

 

You can still kill them with one shot to the face if they're unalert.

 

 

The very purpose of the overhead knockout is that, traditionally, very few guards could resist it.

 

Very few guards can resist KOs in TDM either. It's rare for mappers to use the helmets that make guards immune to KO (and of course it's up to the mapper whether they use any helmets at all).

 

If KOing becomes too easy, then players can simply waltz around and clear levels with impunity, which isn't especially fun.

[AluminumHaste]

I STILL waltz around and clear levels with impunity. For example I just finished playing Lords and Legacy, and there's 1 person still standing, the Elite guard who is immune to KO.

So it's still too easy.

[simplen00b]

I remember getting so frustrated in the early days of playing TDM - KO'ing just seemed to be impossible. And then...I learned how to do it and I got used to it. (Still bork it at times but that's part of the fun.) And yeah, like AH, I usually leave hardly anyone standing.

 

BTW - re guards who have blackjack-resistant helmets: can they be knocked out by dropping heavy objects on them, or does their helmet make them immune to that as well?