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Training Mission 2.0 Feedback


Serpentine

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I thought we could do with a little thread about this most classic of maps.

Bikerdude and others did a great job of improving and expanding the map for the TDM 2.0 release.

 

Issues will be added to this OP as the thread continues.

 

Basic questions (feel free to point out other things!):

  • Was there anything we missed?
  • Which areas did you find confusing?
  • Which areas could do with some added love?
  • Did you find the written portions to be easily understandable?
  • Get stuck in a specific spot? Trapped in a barrel? :)
  • Spot anything buggy going on?

Known issues :

  • Melee training AI get stuck after taking a swing/being hit. (Likely script issue)
  • Performance in the melee training area is low. (Needs to drop some AI, replace others with dumb versions)
  • Light going through walls near flashbomb/body drop area (Likely leaks via statics)
  • A slight clipping problem below the rope arrow quiver passage (image)
  • Table in archery section is floating slightly
  • Spade in archery barn falls through the floor when nudged (Likely a bit under the patches)
  • Frob-block the chalice atop of the pillar.
  • Typo in tiled floor popup : "Go through the partially door behind you,"

Candidates for improvement:

  • Sections for: listening throught doors, dealing with the undead.
  • Better explain the terms 'frob' and 'use' (Need to verify, but this is fairly important)
  • Try to avoid people picking up the book in the item-use area without knowing how to deal with items in inventory and the use thereof.
  • Lock-picking instructions might be improved with some rewording (Check if this is the case)

General comments are fine so long as they are somewhat relevant. 'I love the changes' is not really (we all do :) )

 

Thanks!

Edited by Serpentine
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I have noticed that the information pop-ups in the stealth area seem to only show up once, and have a very short expiry. I remember extending most of them and making them repeat. I have had another new player comment that it was tricky to read them as a result.

 

The builder at his desk, right as you enter the stealth/sneak training area. I didn't quite understand the point of him being there. Admittedly I did not look around too much to figure out if there was a point to that. It just seemed strange, the old area had the carpet which made you aware of your footsteps, this just seemed to have a metal grate which he didnt care too much about when I made a noise walking on it. I think I missed something there!

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Already posted it it another thread: In the stealth training area, there are lights shining through walls, one in the stairway of the new body hiding room, when you get back out of the room, and one in the storage room, where you room when you flash bombed the guard. Also, the performance gets very weak when in the water. This used to be the case with the old version too though, but it seems to have gotten worse a bit.

 

Overall, the mission has been massively improved though, both graphically, and gameplay wise too. The lighting is much better now, there used to be some areas which were just too dark, especially in the jump and climb section.

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Also, the performance gets very weak when in the water. This used to be the case with the old version too though, but it seems to have gotten worse a bit.

Some of the water effects are a bit heavier than others, this hasnt changed as far as I can tell.

 

Thanks very much for the report tho!

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Also, the performance gets very weak when in the water. This used to be the case with the old version too though, but it seems to have gotten worse a bit.

That seems to be an old issue with some nvidia graphicscards. Try to set g_doublevision to 0 via the console and see if that fixes your performance issues.

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First of all, I just want to say, as a long-time Thief fan and someone who is new to The Dark Mod, this training mission is both a fantastic tutorial as well as a showcase for all of your hard work. I've spent a few hours in this mission and even though it's just for training, I totally get the feel like I'm playing a Thief game. Jaw-droppingly good. This is my new favorite game.

 

That said, I do have a few comments about his map.

 

Is there a section devoted to listening at doors? Maybe I missed it, but I didn't notice one and then I tried it on a fan mission and was pleasantly surprised to find out that it worked.

 

After reading the introductory book in the center of all the rooms, the first door I went through was the object handling section. There, when I tried to read the instruction book, I picked it up. Whereas the first book stays put, this one goes into your inventory and you have to specifically use it. I get that that might be the point - showing that you "handle objects" such as books - but I was confused as to why this book was behaving differently from the first one that I just read. It might be better to have that book stay put and have some other book to read in that area. Having the object with all of the instructions behave differently was confusing. It might also be useful to have some scrolls and notes to read. When I eventually played Tears of St. Lucia, I didn't immediately realize that some scrolls had more than one page of text. Books having a folded corner is pretty much a standard indicator in games, but I didn't recognize the graphical method for scrolls (and somewhat with the notes with loose pieces of paper) when I first saw it.

 

The lockpicking method was new to me, as is mentioned in the text. It took me a while to figure it out and get the feel for it, but I suppose that's the point of this tutorial. I initially thought that you had to stop during the silent pause in between the lock tumbler sounds, but it's more like you have to stop just at the moment when the sound stops. Looking back, it's plainly written in the instructions, but it took a while before it "clicked" with me (pun intended). Maybe saying that you need to click right at the end of the sound, rather than the start of the silence, would make it more obvious.

 

I was also a bit confused about frob vs. use. Trying to unlock and lock those doors resulted in lots of fruitless clicks, or me closing doors when I was trying to re-lock them using the keys. Again, that's the point of having a tutorial, and I eventually worked it out, but maybe a more direct explanation is needed. It was kind of frustrating before I "got it". It also took a bit of time to realize that I had to use different lockpicks. I'm a bit embarrassed to admit that it took some time to notice the red and green flashes when using the wrong and right equipment (even though, again, it is mentioned in the instructions). It might be useful to spell it out when unlocking the doors. "Use the triangle pick here." "Use the triangle pick, then snake pick on the second door." "Now use the triangle pick, then the snake pick twice." "For the treasure door, we're not going to tell you what to use. You'll need to figure it out for yourself."

 

I might just be really bad a sword fighting, but I haven't won a single match yet. Admittedly, after dying ten or so times in a row, I just sort of gave up and went to go do some more sneaky things. I can't specifically fault the map for my lack of skill, but that was my experience with it. Maybe I need to pratice on a dummy first.

 

Whenever someone kills you, they get about one word out before the scene cuts out and you respawn back at the start. It'd be nice to hear what they say.

 

In the stealth section, just before the tile floor part, when you get the pop-up about collecting moss arrows, it reads, "Go through the partially door behind you," I'm assuming it's supposed to be "partially open door".

 

As has been mentioned, the pop-up only appearing one time - and briefly - caused me to miss some things. In the jump and climb section, I didn't know know how to reach the exit, because I missed the part about shooting a rope arrow up to the crate above me. So I didn't realize that I could use rope arrows on vertical surfaces, and I just backtracked to the beginning.

 

At the end of the objects and handling section, where you can push a crate, pushing a crate with a candle on it causes the crate to move, but the candle stays still and will even float there if you push the crate completely away from it (if you touch the hovering candle, it will fall to the ground). It's probably more of an engine issue than a map issue, but since that room is full of crates and candles, I had it happen to me.

 

This is probably a "feature not a bug", but in the section where you need to knock the chalice off of the pillar with a rock, you can just mantle up onto one of the large vases along the wall and then jump up to the pillar and grab the chalice. I felt kind of sneaky for doing that, which isn't a bad thing in this game, but maybe you want to force the player to knock it down.

Edited by Zone Tripper
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Wow - Thank you very much Zone Tripper, that is excellent feedback. A lot of ideas there, very nice and realistic :)

 

I will sift through the post now and add the more buggy topics to the OP. The more idea-y things I'll leave in place, but I already have a few thoughts on how to add a door-listening example.

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Hi, another newcomer here. Have some feedback.

 

1) It could be that I missed a hint, but I remember being frustrated at the fact that you drag bodies instead of carrying them. The only hint I remember is the one simply advising to hide the body. I only discovered you can actually pick them up later and by accident. Also iirc, the hint only appeared when I backtracked up the stairs, if you just KO the guard and move on, you'll miss hiding bodies explanation entirely.

2) Found all 10 health potions without much of a problem. Also found the room that congratulates you for finding it. And the bonus guard in an alleyway by the shooting range too. And a secret(?) moss arrow at the start of the stealth course. Just mentioning to reassure that they aren't too hard for a newbie to find.

3) When entering a stealthy section, a natural urge is to get to a higher point (might be Dishonored influence, I dunno). Unfortunately that higher place is occupied by barrels that seem to be particularly hard to mount onto. First post mentions getting stuck in a barrel - this can't be intentional, can it?

4) The rope that's supposed to teach you swinging seems a bit too short/high for a tutorial showcase. If you miss and fall into the water the first time, you might forget to try it again when you get back to it later.

5) Found combat to be too hard/clunky. More to do with the mod, not the mission itself. I'm playing with a rather high mouse sensitivity, so making different attacks is an acrobatic performance rather than a fight. I just left after the second guard. Not like I'm planning to fight a lot, but the sword was indispensable in dealing with aggressive wildlife in Thief. After I failed to kill a lonely spider in St.Lucia , I'm starting to think I missed something in the tutorial.

6) Wasn't really a problem to me, but I kinda feel floor surfaces could use a better explanation. If someone hasn't played Thief in the last decade (or ever), you need to make sure they're aware they can run on carpets/grass/moss making almost no sound. Just a thought.

Edited by chedap
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3) When entering a stealthy section, a natural urge is to get to a higher point (might be Dishonored influence, I dunno). Unfortunately that higher place is occupied by barrels that seem to be particularly hard to mount onto. First post mentions getting stuck in a barrel - this can't be intentional, can it?

 

I agree, i always get stuck there and have to use noclip to get out...

Thank you very much for your patience and sorry for my strange English. Holland btw.

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Thank you chedap and maga!

 

I, too, fell victims to those barrels. They are a new addition to 2.0, and will need a little bit of clipping to make them mantle nicely. I forgot all about them, I know some other people got stuck in a barrel (tho you can actually get out of them fairly easily once you understand how to mantle :))

 

Chedap, I agree that the swinging area could use with a more linear progression. While I like the stairs that have been added in 2.0, I also feel that it could make people just bypass the area. Will need to think about that one.

 

Good work finding the arrows, that said, there are still more hidden away ;)

 

Thank you both for the feedback. So important to get this stuff right, even more-so than most games which have entirely linear training areas. Much appreciated :)

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In regards to chedap's post, I also didn't realize that I could carry bodies until I was playing my third fan mission and kind of discovered it by mistake. I even read the bit of text that said that putting a body down will alternate between it landing face-up and face-down. My reaction was, "What are you talking about? All I can do is drag these guys." I think it might just be another frob vs. use issue. Not really understanding that while I was learning the basics is probably responsible for most of what I failed to grasp at first. I also had an issue with trying to snuff out candles, for similar reasons. Once I understood that (and mapped "use" to the Tab button for convenience's sake), a lot of my issues were solved.

 

It might also be helpful to have some combat against spiders in the tutorial. Maybe it's because I gave up on the melee tutorial, but once I started playing fan missions with spiders in it, I was left wondering what to do. I would swing my sword almost at point blank range, while crouching, and nothing seemed to happen. I sort of need to swing my mouse up while hitting the button to do any actual damage. To me, that seems more like a special attack to use against another swordsman. A basic swing should do at least something to a critter, but maybe I'm doing it wrong. I also had questions like, do I need to crouch while fighting a spider or can I just look down and swing (it seems that you need to crouch)? Experimenting with how do all of that while in the middle of a mission led to a lot of deaths. Learning in the tutorial how to fight all creature types (undead, and elementals, if they exist yet) would be very helpful.

 

Yes, swinging on ropes could use a more basic example. One where a player could quickly get back to it if they fail or just want more practice. I like the current rope as a more advanced example, but I have to admit that, upon failing and either landing in the water (which reduces my framerate drastically) or smacking into a wall, I wasn't all that motivated to climb my way back up just to try again. If I could quickly access the rope again, I would have gotten more practice with it.

 

And chedap mentioned a few hidden items that I didn't find, so I guess that they are just the right amount of tricky to find. I love the fact that I enjoy playing (and replaying) the training mission. Those hidden bits and other things to discover really helped to make this tutorial immersive and professional-feeling. That, and playing St. Lucia as the first mission, really made me go, "Whoa, these guys are good! This IS Thief!"

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One more post about this and I swear I'm (probably) done. :smile:

 

Upon replaying the training mission again to look for hidden things (just found the gas arrow, very good, that one), I have these comments:

 

In the object handling section, the crate in the corner with the hat on it, and rings underneath: because that crate is movable and the rings are so small, most of the time I wind up selecting the crate to move and the rings just kind of spaz out on top of it or fall off. Perhaps that crate should not be movable or the hat and rings should be moved to another area.

 

In the jump and climb section, I never saw the text pop-up about crouching on ropes and ladders to slide down them until this playthrough. I guess it's because when I miss the rope and fall into the canal, I just sort of explore the rest of the map instead of trying the rope again. And when I go back, I do it by climbing the vines to the balcony and swinging back on the rope. I don't think I even noticed that ladder in the corner before.

 

Even though being underwater is very laggy for me, it might be useful to have some specific reason to go underwater, if only to let the player experience how to move around in it and the breath-meter. There's the text pop-up, but practical experience would be useful.

 

Sort of a minor issue, but in the hidden area of the archery section, where the guard walks back and forth, one of the textures for stone walls has a visible seam on it (http://imgur.com/T9s9HOG) which made me think, "Aha! There's obviously a hidden door right here! I'll just press one of these bricks, and... okay, maybe this one... no... hmmm..." That texture and seam are repeated a couple of times elsewhere.

 

I think the end of the lockpicking section could use a little something at the end. I felt pretty accomplished getting through all of those doors, but at the end of it all there was just this on/off switch. I felt like a master thief picking all those locks; it'd be nice to have a little treasure at the end, even if it's hidden. Or maybe turning off that machine reveals a secret somewhere else. Unless of course there is something there that I just didn't notice.

 

And this mission has no objectives, but why not have some? There are plenty of hidden treasures and things like finding the ten health potions and various arrows. Maybe even have a new optional objective pop up when you, say, find that first health potion. It could be argued that optional objects appearing in the middle of missions is something that a new player would need to learn. I think it'd be an enjoyable challenge to some players and a good way to let people know that there's more to this map than meets the eye. I know that when I play a map and I swear that I've cleaned out every bit of treasure, only to find out at the end that I missed 300 or so, it makes me think that the map maker has cleverly hidden some things that I've missed. If anything, having different objective levels would train the player in... objectives.

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Sounds like you missed the safe in the lockpicking room. The whole reason you shut down the machine is so you can hear the lockpicking sounds on the safe.

 

I actually did open the safe. I just did it before opening the gate. I think it's because that pop-up message for that area fades quickly enough that I didn't get to fully read the part about needing to opening the gate first. I was able to open the safe with no problem; the clicks were just less audible, but not by that much. In my mind, I was practicing how to open locks under noisy conditions.

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one of the textures for stone walls has a visible seam on it (http://imgur.com/T9s9HOG) which made me think, "Aha! There's obviously a hidden door right here! I'll just press one of these bricks, and... okay, maybe this one... no... hmmm..."

In many games it was possible to find the hidden doors by looking at the textures, but you'll find it's different here. Thomas Porter missions have a few of those hidden doors, and they are all seamless texture wise. The only thing is that they highlight as an interactable object when you aim at them.

 

And this mission has no objectives, but why not have some? There are plenty of hidden treasures and things like finding the ten health potions and various arrows.

I would also like this training mission to have objectives and to be completable. :) Didn't go requesting this before though as it's not a big deal.

 

I actually did open the safe. I just did it before opening the gate.

Same here, it's not hard. But yeah, doing so will leave you thinking that turning off the machine is unrewarding.

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New today, spent hours enjoying sneaking around the training happily. :-)

 

I see mention of ten health potions here, I thought I poked through everything, but totally missed them, wherever they might be. I also missed extra archery stuff apparently. I just shot three bulls-eyes, realized the fourth was too far, tried to compensate by aiming high, then left.

 

But things I made an account here to bring to folks' attention:

 

General:

 

- I'm a fast reader, but only would get about two-thirds through the pop up instructional notes before they faded away. May I suggest they remain up longer and repeat if you return to the area? (Twice as long would do me fine, but for regular speed readers, three times might be better.)

 

- Instead of just labeling the different doors/sections, I might actually number them with roman numerals in a logical sequence. IE, I. Graphics, II. Movement, III. Objects, IV. Etc.

 

- I agree with the suggestion about handling bodies. I was a bit vague about it too, but reread the note and realized you don't just drag them, you drag AND use them. A suggestion that you need to crouch to pick them up, but stand to drop them might help too.

 

- I had no problems understanding/executing lock-picking first tries and all of them.

 

- Unlike whomever found the guy at the desk didn't react to him when on the metal, I found he did and took me out, moving slower resolved that/taught me nicely. (Subsequently when I shot him, I was delighted by the letter and logbook copy, nice flavor.)

 

Movement section:

 

- Jumping from the platform to the awning caused me no end of grief and deaths, any reason to have it quite that difficult? I might move the wooden planks a bit closer to assure learning, instead of frustration.

 

- The rope seemed WAY too short to me too. The reason? I turn on crouching in games like this and never turn it off. I went for a lot of swims (no performance problems with ATI card), and found the ladder that would otherwise be missed. Not sure where a hint to not crouch then would fit in though. :/ I'd also include a ladder in the regular flow of progress, which brings me to...

 

- This would be much more work, but much of this section is one-way. If something goes wrong, you are screwed, have to bail and start it all over again. It would be nice to simply be able to go back and pick up more rope arrows, because half a dozen wasn't enough apparently (or have more down below). ;p Oh wait, can't get back to that window (although maybe if I had a rope arrow...curses!) I would suggest in the writing to pickup dozens of arrows, since users have to restart otherwise.

 

Fighting:

 

- I too have yet to win any mêlée fight even with the bug stopping them. It seems they parry all my blows, then two-shot me, with no chance to parry since they wait until I swing before they hit me. In regular game missions, I've taken to simply shooting everyone at a distance instead. After completing the stealth section of the training, I ran around there sniping everyone as well just for practice/fun/learning the archery in play. (Technically I did knock someone out with the blackjack in training, but haven't dared since.)

 

Objects:

 

- From foreknowledge (reading the wiki while awaiting download?) I knew to "use" a book that popped immediately into inventory, but it was an aberration since all the other texts stayed put and showed on screen, as someone previously mentioned. A pop up explaining would help here.

 

- Although I grokked the "frob" term is being used for "activate", it's definitely odd to use one term for activate, another for "use", which both work for the same thing in some circumstances, and manipulate as well. Is there reason to have three separate exclusive controls instead of one or two?

 

Objectives:

 

- No need for any objectives, but wouldn't hurt, and would add progress satisfaction for some players (like achievements). Objectives could highlight some of the things I missed, like taking out the live target in the archery section, finding the heal pots, getting through the movement, killing the first guy in mêlée, etc.

 

- A simple objective would be to complete (enter/exit) all sections, just that alone would "reward" some folks psychologically.

 

Finally, I'm offering these suggestions/feedback in appreciation of one of the finer tutorials I've seen, phenomenal job to all those who took part in creating it! :-) As I said, I actually enjoyed it for hours. How often do you say that about training, instead of just trying to blow through it to get to the "real" game?

"The measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out."

- Baron Thomas Babington Macauley

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Movement section:

 

- Jumping from the platform to the awning caused me no end of grief and deaths, any reason to have it quite that difficult? I might move the wooden planks a bit closer to assure learning, instead of frustration.

 

- The rope seemed WAY too short to me too. The reason? I turn on crouching in games like this and never turn it off. I went for a lot of swims (no performance problems with ATI card), and found the ladder that would otherwise be missed. Not sure where a hint to not crouch then would fit in though. :/ I'd also include a ladder in the regular flow of progress, which brings me to...

 

- This would be much more work, but much of this section is one-way. If something goes wrong, you are screwed, have to bail and start it all over again. It would be nice to simply be able to go back and pick up more rope arrows, because half a dozen wasn't enough apparently (or have more down below). ;p Oh wait, can't get back to that window (although maybe if I had a rope arrow...curses!) I would suggest in the writing to pickup dozens of arrows, since users have to restart otherwise.

I honsestly find that jump to be very easy. I guess you just don't have a feeling for the field of view in TDM. Try to sneak up the the border while looking down. Then look up to see how it looks like when you're right at the border. Also you obviously have to run before jumping. So no crouching. In fact, standing up is a viable option in tdm, you should try it... ;) Acrobatics should almost always be performed standing up and running.

 

Also the section is not one-way. You can get back up to that window easily by mantling. Just practice it a little more. Mantling in tdm is extremely powerful!

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- Jumping from the platform to the awning caused me no end of grief and deaths, any reason to have it quite that difficult? I might move the wooden planks a bit closer to assure learning, instead of frustration.

I'll check again, but I made this a whole lot easier in 2.0 (added clipping so that you can grab then mantle onto the awning more easily). I have a feeling you might have been crouching, as with the rope area. Gotta run a little bit from time to time :)

 

Thank you for the rest of the feedback, I think the whole reward mechanic is something we could do a little more of, as you say :)

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The training book prompts the player to start in the brightness/gamma room, but doesn't really provide guidance as to which rooms to visit next. I just picked the object room randomly and was a little frustrated to be presented with a locked chest and no way to open it. I even thought the lockpicks may be on the table nearby.

 

It might be nice to order the rooms in a clockwise fashion (and let the player know this in the training book) such that skills needed in one room don't come before the room where you learn that skill.

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I'll check again, but I made this a whole lot easier in 2.0 (added clipping so that you can grab then mantle onto the awning more easily). I have a feeling you might have been crouching, as with the rope area. Gotta run a little bit from time to time :)

 

Actually you needed to be standing tall to mantle up onto that platform, then I'm positive I was running (I have a G13 gaming keypad, so switched to use two hands to hold the run key while using the joystick to move forward and also hold the jump key). Now that I remember it, I only jumped too late/fell from platform once, so perhaps it's as much my learning the timing/positioning?

 

If you are happy with the distance, then perhaps some barrels beneath the awning to land on to minimize damage from the fall? Three misses and you are dead/running back from the main room. Actually, I take that back, it's good to learn how far you can fall/how many times with what amount of damage. :-)

"The measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out."

- Baron Thomas Babington Macauley

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