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Gamers Have It Easy These Days...


Domarius

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Well for me, its worth it. I find the tension exciting. I feel sorry for everyone else who doesn't know what its like to get that involved in a game.

 

And I wasn't talking about leaving the game on pause forever. I was talking about short breaks.

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Man, I mentioned trying to buy Silent Hunter III earlier. Maybe some of Spector's insane ranting hit close to the truth in this case: None of the places that carry games/software in my area are even putting this game on the shelves. I had to mail order it after accepting the fact that it's been a week and a half since release, they're not going to stock it. I guess submarine simulators are not "mainstream" enough, and can't take up one lousy space on the shelf to displace the latest "stare at someone's 3rd person ass while they run from side to side dispatching hordes and hordes of mindless opponents" game.

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Heh, that's becasue most gamers just wander into stores with no idea what they want, see something shiny on a shelf, point, and say 'I want that one'.

(Little Brtiain fans will recognise that senario)

So if you don't pay retailers large amounts of money to give your game a premier place on the shelves (around eye level are the most expensive spots) you'll miss out on all that trade.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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YES Darkness_Falls!!!!  Someone else who SEES the huge problem that we have all come to accept as normal in games!!

Yes!!! :D You know, it is a big problem, I feel. Unfortunately, most people (including myself up until this point, more or less) are so used to the convenience of being able to save a game at any time that it would be very hard, if not futile, to try and get people to understand and accept this as any sort of standard that should be implemented for gaming. (Especially with our "time-deprived" society that requires convenience in everything.)

 

Had I not grown up playing games in the 80s and 90s, I might not have understood or accepted your argument. Since many gamers of today maybe didn't experience as many games from that era as I did, I can't expect them to understand.

 

I can't beleive no one else has realised this HUGE problem that "save any time" creates

Unfortunately, it's only a huge problem when you stop to think about it and truly weigh the pros and cons of it against what you feel you need as a gamer. Our needs as a gamer are not the same as everyone else's, so it's probably not a huge problem for everyone. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a HUGE problem, but I can see how the gaming experience can be (and probably is) highly diluted as a result of allowing the player to save at any point during a game. I've played many FPS games over the past 10 years. Unlimited saves does dilute the experience somewhat. Shoot and kill a guard from behind a crate > save > go behind next crate > shoot another guard > save again, etc. To be honest, I feel I'm sometimes a slave to the saves because there are no limits to using them and I've become accustomed to not wanting to replay areas if I die. (In fact, I'll even do a QuickLoad after receiving a minor wound, so I'll often finish a level with full health when I otherwise shouldn't have full health.) It has become a big convenience thing for me. And in some respects, playing games has become more of a playland ride through a movie to see what all it has to show, rather than a challenging experience from which I derive a sense of challenge and accomplishment. As I stated above, though, I plan to change this in future games I play -- at least for a while as I test this out. I want to re-live the challenge and accomplishment I experienced in games of yester-year. I have a feeling games will be a lot more rewarding if I do this.

 

It's the whole reason I came up with the save points idea!!!!!  What do you think of it?

i know this is a complete 180 from what I talked about on our internal boards a couple weeks ago, but I now really do see the benefit (at least for myself) of wanting save restrictions. As such, I wouldn't mind seeing something like what you proposed in that thread. oDDity's idea isn't so bad either. The one thing I haven't liked about save points in many games, though, is that you almost *know* a tough area or a "boss character" is coming up because the game pauses for a moment to load that area or you can save. Having some randomness to the save point locations (not always being before a hard part, for instance), or doing something like oDDity suggested would help alleviate this inherent problem. I don't like being warned that something difficult or unique will be coming around the corner.

 

Take care,

~ Darkness Falls

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(Remember people, I'm talking about the idea of saving in general)

 

Thanks. It doesn't matter how pertinent a statement someone makes, everyone else will think that person is a loony for coming up with it, if not one other person is capable of appreciating it.

So I am very glad that you agree with me, and have taken the time to say so in such a well thought out manner.

 

(In fact, I'll even do a QuickLoad after receiving a minor wound, so I'll often finish a level with full health when I otherwise shouldn't have full health.)

This is the "Matrix Movie" effect I described earlier, where if you played the whole game back as a movie with out the quickload interruptions, you would have this movie of a person doing everything as perfectly as possible, being the master of economy with consumables, and never taking a hit.

 

And in some respects, playing games has become more of a playland ride through a movie to see what all it has to show, rather than a challenging experience from which I derive a sense of challenge and accomplishment.

This is the big problem - and people take playing games this way for granted nowadays. Gameplay hours are drastically reduced and people barge their way through getting by each little bit by trying it over and over till they get by out of sheer luck.

 

The only thing to do about this is to self-impose some sort of save or load restriction.

This kind of works, but you never get confronted with the seemingly impossible situation (trying to get between two specific save points without dying) - and then discovering that if you play a certain way, it's not impossible after all.

 

The level designer has a unique experience created in their mind, and shows you this experience, by making it impossible to get by until you discover what it is.

 

The most basic example of this is showing a hardened Quake player the excitement of stealth gameplay.

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reduced and people barge their way through getting by each little bit by trying it over and over till they get by out of sheer luck.

 

Save points don't solve this problem...they just make it more frustrating to repeat, since you have to repeat many things you already did *successfully* as well. And in many cases, people will simply give up. I know I've given up on games before because I got tired of replaying 10 minutes of a level only to die on the same jumping puzzle at the end.

 

But to each their own. Some people won't play cards unless there's serious money on the line. Some people won't play football unless it's full contact. Play the way that's fun for you, and let others do the same.

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In case anyone cares, I finally got Silent Hunter III. I'm still getting into it, and yes, it is hard on the "historical" difficulty setting.

 

For example, to execute a torpedo attack: You have to identify the ships yourself thru the periscope, using an identification manual. If you start out by identifying the ship incorrectly, your firing solution is useless, and your torpedo may be set for the wrong running depth and pass harmlessly under the keel even if it happens to go anywhere near the ship.

 

The historical U boats had a Torpedo Data Computer ( so the player doesn't actually get to do the trigonemetric calculations looking at trig tables and using a slide rule.. damn, such an easy game! ). The required inputs for a firing solution are Range, Angle on Bow, and Speed

 

Range: Estimate range by measuring the angle made by your periscope reticule when you sweep from water line to highest point on the ship. An automated calculor then outputs the range based on the identified ship mast height (again if you identified the ship wrong, you be screwed). If you don't believe the range, you can calculate it yourself using the formula range = (mast height from ID manual) / sin( angle )

 

Angle on Bow (or your sub's bearing as seen from the other ship) : This can be estimated visually, using the different perspective pictures in the identification manual. Visual estimation is the most inaccurate method. The most accurate method is to change your heading so that you are travelling parallel to the target's course (the lateral distance remains constant). Then the Angle on Bow is simply 180 deg - (the target's bearing with respect to you). Report that to the TDC officer.

 

Speed: You can estimate speed by locking the periscope on target and starting a stopwatch, which records range and bearing data, and automatically calculates the speed from that. If you are not satisfied with the calculated speed, you can enter another value yourself. A bad Range calculation will also mess up your Speed calculation. You can also bring your sub to a parallel course and same speed (which means the range will not change over time), then just enter in your sub's speed.

 

Finally, you send all this data to the TDC officer. If you want, you can take over his post and man the TDC yourself at this point, and change the calculated firing solution however you want. This is also where you set torpedo running depth, speed and detonation method (magnetic vs impact). More advanced torpedos have other settings like pattern running and acoustical guidance.

 

Once you've done all this, you fire the tubes and hope for the best. As in real life, you'll sometimes get a dud torpedo, and sometimes they will detonate prematurely (esp. when set to magnetic detonation), which alerts everyone to your presence and means you'd better do some fast thinking.

 

So that's just the "executing a torpedo attack" portion of the game, which lets you command pretty much all the U-boat systems (altho not all of them to that level of detail).

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Saving is tied to gameplay balancing. We can't ignore it just because it's traditional to do so.

Being able to save anytime, anywhere, as often as you like, nullifies the challenge, and unbalances the game.

Im not sure what your point is Ishivan. Are you saying you like really difficult games, and you want to make the Dark Mod as challenging as possible, not giving the player any option for easy ways out or shortcuts?

So that makes three of us now...

 

*rubs hands with glee*

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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I'm all for making the campaign as challenging as is reasonable. But saving is a totally unrelated matter; it is the imbilical cord between the game world and real life. It only takes a fuckup in one of these two universes to require a quicksave. And let's face it, real life is infinately more challenging than the game world, with no option to restart if you miss appointments, wet your pants, or ignore your girlfriend. :ph34r:

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I like detailed games, and realism is good IMO unless it tries to replace something that we do naturally in RL thru other senses than sound and sight with some clunky awkward interface ingame. For example, it would be silly to have a key for "step with right leg" and "step with left leg" and then 10 keys for different leg movement speeds.

 

Personally I'm pro-saving, because things like game crashes and AI's getting stuck do occasionally happen, no matter how carefully we code the AI and how carefully the map is designed. When I'm playing T2 and an AI gets stuck at a corner or along a wall somewhere, resulting in the map becoming un-ghostable, I like to be able to restore the game to some point without losing 30 minutes of progress (maybe 5 minutes of lost progress is okay)

 

I know we've been over this debate in the private forums several times, but I think making limited saves an option, or even just reporting the number of saves/reloads at the end stats screen is enough for people to enforce save-discipline on themselves if they want. Enforcing limited saves on everyone will not result in revolutionizing how people play games, it will just result in people who don't like limited saves not playing the game.

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It only takes a fuckup in one of these two universes to require a quicksave. And let's face it, real life is infinately more challenging than the game world, with no option to restart if you miss appointments, wet your pants, or ignore your girlfriend. :ph34r:

Surely that's an argument against unlimited saves then? We all manage real life which is a lot more complex, without saves, so why not a relatively easy game?

If you could quicksave in real life, I bet you guys woud be just the sort of people to quicksave every time you stepped off the street onto the road incase you got hit by a bus....and then just just reload and look both ways this time.

Pussies.

If I got hit by that bus, fair enough, I'd be dead with no comebacks, but at least I'd be able to feel superior about it.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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Now now you two, you can shout abuse at each other in the private forum.

 

Surely that's an argument against unlimited saves then? We all manage real life which is a lot more complex, without saves, so why not a relatively easy game?

 

This kind of logic makes me want to hit lifes 'Esc' key. :D

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Thanks Fingernail.

 

And stop bringing this discussion into the mod, people. I never intended it to be about that. I'm talking about games in general. Ever since wolfenstien, we've been able to save whenever we want, and when I played that game, straight away I found myself quickloading practically after every wasted bullet, and quicksaving after every sucesful hit. Pretty much anyway. And back then, I asked myself "Is this right? Isn't this making my gameplay a bit 'perfect'?" The anxiety I experienced in other games when reaching a boss I could never get past, was never there. And the exhilerating feeling when I finally got good enough to beat it, wasn't there either.

 

It's like anything else. You trade off something for something else. In this case, its convenience for excitement and immersion.

 

Serious Sam 2 is one of my favorite games. It's a standard FPS, but its just done so damn well.

Easily the feature I appreciate the most, is the "credits" feature in co-op mode. You can set the server up any way you want, and you have the option of having a "credit" limit. That means everyone (in co-op mode) has a lives pool to draw from. When someone dies, it goes down by one, and you start exactly where you die.

 

This fixes the useless co-op mode of Doom 2, where you will never fail, because you all have unlimited lives- you just start back at the start if you die.

 

So in Serious Sam, you can save and load any time you want, and if you die, you actually start right where you died. Its just that once everyone has died enough - game over. And the lives are stored in the save, so if you re-load, you have to have saved where you had a decent amount of lives, else you need to go from an earlier save (or just don't save if you're doing badly) or start the level over again.

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FPS games cannot be compared to stealth games like THief when it comes to saves. There's a major difference between a non-stop action game where you're constanty under fire and can be killed at any second with one mistake, and a slow paced game like Thief where you have all the time in the world to think things through and make decisions on what to do. Even if you do make a mistake and get caught its not game over, you have many ways of escaping. Saving simply isn't necessary unless you're quiting the game. Only people who lack confidence in their playing ability and decision-making consider saving their progress in a game like Thief. That's why I refer to them as pussies.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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If you can't see a pictiure of a pussy without having a wank, then that's your problem...

I take it the IT guys come up to wipe the monitors after you've 'come across' this indecent stuff?

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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Only people who lack confidence in their playing ability and decision-making consider saving their progress in a game like Thief.

I disagree. I mainly quick saved a lot in Thief for a couple reasons:

 

1 ) Because it's a slow-moving game and a lot of time and energy is sometimes involved with safely going from Point A to Point B (to C, D, E, F, etc.) and I don't want to do any of it all over again *if* something goes wrong (e.g., I trigger one NCP who triggers the whole castle's worth of NCPs so I then have 15 guards after me; I get unfairly shot and killed by arrows launched when stepping on a secret platform or moving in front of a camera; or if I just accidentally upset the wrong guard.) I just got to a point where I found it a waste of time (and no fun) to re-do stuff.

 

2 ) Create save points throughout a level that I can go back to and either re-play if I liked the moments, or quickly show a friend the cool area or situation if I wanted.

 

I think ( 1 ) is the biggest for me, but I'll think about it more. I'm sure I can think of more reasons 'why' but I need to get going here.

 

I have lots of confidence in my playing abilities and decision-making. That's not really the issue for me. Although I could play very slowly (even slower than I already play Thief) to mostly avoid those circumstances in ( 1 ), I think I sometimes go insane if I go too slow or if I've done so much that I don't want to lose my work. Imagine working on a 3-D model in Lightwave for 3 hours without saving and then all the sudden something goes wrong (either system or human error) and you've lost a bunch or all your work. Would you really have the patience to eagerly do it again? Heck, if I write an email for 5 minutes and lose it I get p*ssed that I have to re-type it.

 

BUT, again, I'm keeping an open mind with my future endeavors in game-saving. Aside from game crashes, I might enjoy the painstaking work of very slowly going through a game, or re-doing levels if I need to. Although, going once through Half-Life 2 and Doom 3 levels was enough for me. I would dread to have to go through them again. Heck, I even dreaded going back 2 minutes to my last QuickSave in those games to re-do areas. The games weren't bad, I just sometimes got bored of the repetition and wanted to rush through the levels from the boredom. Re-doing levels in a game like Thief might be different, though -- I think.

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Well Doom and halflife don't have much re-playablitiy. At some point you realise you're just playing through to see what comes up next, not because you're enjoying it...

 

Same goes for typing an email or making a 3D model - its the end result you want.

 

Where as games like Thief, its the experience that's the fun.

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I disagree.  I mainly quick saved a lot in Thief for a couple reasons...

THose are two contradictory statements which cannot be resolved.

' I have lots of confidence in my playing ability and decision making' and

'..but I'm going to save anyway in case I do something wrong'

As Dom says, making your way from point A to B is the game, you talk about it as if it's some tedious journey that has to be made before the real fun begins.

I have no problem with an autosave every half hour or so to make sure a game crash or a bug (both very rare) does necessitate 2 hours worth of playing agin, because that can be demoralising.

Edited by oDDity

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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