The Builder Faith

[Sotha]

To get my plot working, I've tried to wrap my head around the Builder faith. Here (http://wiki.thedarkm...?title=Builders) is a good crash course on the topic, but I was wondering if the Builders have a sort of equivalent to the Ten Commandments?

 

Or is it simply:

 

Virtues:

*Order

*Work

*Devotion

 

Vices:

*Stealing

*Destruction

*Sloth

*Chaos

 

Is there anything else with the terms of Builder morality, rules and such?

[Springheel]

Well, the builders are kind of like an Old Testament version of Catholicism, with Amos being a kind of Moses figure, who was given the "One True Hammer" by the Master Builder. It's more than likely they have a set of hard-core fire-and-brimstone style commandments....I doubt they have any "love thy neighbour" equivelant.

 

We know that there is a "puritan" movement in the Builder church, but that's not the mainstream view.

[demagogue]

I think like most things there's some room for authors to bring out the features they want for their FM and their features crystallize over time.

 

Especially things like holy scripts, doctrines, rituals, historical events & important people are good for crowd sourcing all the little details IMO.

[Sotha]

The commandments are so core stuff in the faith it should be fleshed out to understand the faith. At least I'd like to stick with existing dogma rather than invent my own, hence the questions here.

 

For example: thou shalt not kill.

Is the Builder a blood thirsty god? Builder guards are certainly eager to smite the heathen.

 

Thou shalt not covet. Does the Builder care about the realm of flesh.

 

Honour your father and mother?

 

The other christian commandments are in line with the Buulder faith, as devotion and order covers them prerty well.

[Obsttorte]

"You should not kill" is a dogma in almost all religions, what never hindered them to do it anyway, so you may have not think about that one too much. A good compromise though may be "Thou shalt not kill thy brethren!"

 

What I can imagine is that the bulders may be more critic against machines then normal people. You often read that the Master Builder gave mankind the power to create something (I would take the holy hammer thing as a metaphora for this), so I guess doing something by your own physical strength is pretty central in their faith. Having machines that easens the work may be something they are critic about then.

[Xarg]

Leaving it up to the community might end up with the Master Builder somewhat resembling Khorne. Funny that, since Khorne is an enemy of Slaanesh, who's all about hedonism and debauchery. Which makes me wonder if Khorne was designed as some kind of evil and extreme version of the more militant and negative aspects of organised religion.

[ERH+]

"Evilness" of chaos gods is relative, they are just about letting yourself be guided by impulses -Khorne for anger, Slaanesh for lust, Nurgle for hunger (as corrosion and pestilence is about consuming flesh and matter). RL religions are suppose to establish society rights over selfishness, they would try to suppress self development just to keep different people together. In Hindu caste system there is saying "if a leg want to become a head -it become a cancer", or in early societies, :"punish small offence hard, so there will be no big offences".

 

But even Builder's order would need some April fool's day, where king become a beggar and vice versa, and people feast and wear/unwear masks, letting off steam.

Edited May 14, 2014 by ERH+

[lowenz]

I doubt they have any "love thy neighbour" equivelant.

[OT]

"Love" is a very dangerous thing to decline in a sin-driven religion

If I love you and I care for your soul (cause the soul is the "ultimate you") I can destroy your body to preserve it (so I can preserve the "ultimate you").

[/OT]

Edited May 14, 2014 by lowenz

[nbohr1more]

Since the Thief lore parody's Judeo-Christian theology, it would of course be appropriate to have a "do not kill" commandment that

the actions of the Builders' contradicts in the same way the Inquisition really contradicted the words of the Bible and the spirit of

"free will" inherent in the passages.

 

Yes the commandments should be stern but should also be mostly sensible. The prohibitions against murder, infidelity, idolatry\polytheism

would be the same but things like "remember the sabbath" might be replaced with "never leave a project unfinished, a builder completes all work",

"never use a hammer which has a head of wood and a handle of iron", etc

 

Just a few thoughts.

Edited May 14, 2014 by nbohr1more

[Obsttorte]

I'm not even sure whether they really need commandments. Religions are in most cases not that straight as one may think. Opinions changes over time and old texts who build the fundamentals of those can be interpreted in many different ways. I would focus more on trying to create excerpts of such texts and leave it up to the players mind and the characters mission authors are creating to create something around it understoodable as religion.

 

The more open we leave this the more options mission authors have to use this characters in their plots. As we only have a limited amount of ai, this may be an aspect considerable.

[Springheel]

Damn, had a lengthy reply and then refreshed the bloody page.

 

In brief:

 

B's believe that salvation comes from 1. Creating impressive works of "civilization" (buildings, walls, tools, weapons, craft work, etc) and/or 2. working hard to help others to build. (over time came more and more emphasis was given to 3. paying to support building projects) You have to be doing it for the honor of the Master Builder though--Moors don't get to go to the Golden city just because they build a house.

 

So anything that gets in the way of 1 and 2 are bad. Sloth is a deadly sin, same with gluttony, theft and vandalism. There is some theological debate over whether the hard work has to be voluntary, which is why Builders often force those guilty of religious crimes into hard work.

 

That's why builder guards wear armour--not because they think they'll need it, but because metal plate armour is considered a valuable 'work'. Builders also consider metal to be the finest material to build with. Stone and wood are fine, but metal has to be "worked" the most in order to build with it, which means more honor for the Master Builder.

 

Anything that keeps people from building--entertainment, labour saving machines, getting drunk, playing games, chasing women, etc--is going to be frowned upon by the religion (especially the puritan sect), and devout clergy are unlikely to participate in any of these things.

 

I think I wrote up some Builder commandments some time years ago...I'll see if I can find them.

[Obsttorte]

That's why builder guards wear armour--not because they think they'll need it, but because metal plate armour is considered a valuable 'work'.

In addition it is very heavy. Anyone who served at the army knows how annoying it is to walk around the whole day with up to 30kg of additional weight.

There is some theological debate over whether the hard work has to be voluntary, which is why Builders often force those guilty of religious crimes into hard work.

I would see the latter as a way to cleanse your soul. By the sweat of your hard work the sin drops out of you so to say. (I hope that makes sense, it sounds good in german at least )

Builders also consider metal to be the finest material to build with. Stone and wood are fine, but metal has to be "worked" the most in order to build with it, which means more honor for the Master Builder.

This reminds me of the conversation in the Thief 2 mission with the submarine, where one of those mechanists was talking about the stone buildings he miss and that steel is somewhat cold to him, and the other mechanists responds that metal is the way to go as it is much more persistent (I guess Karras never told him that metal rusts ).

 

It's actually a nice point for when the Inventors would come up with a material that is even better then metal. I guess the Builders wouldn't be very happy.

 

It's actually quite interesting the more you think about it. It would be interesting to hear what other people are imagining in the builders.

[Springheel]

In addition it is very heavy. Anyone who served at the army knows how annoying it is to walk around the whole day with up to 30kg of additional weight.

 

Right. There's also a strong sense of "suffering is good for the soul" in Builder theology (though just like in real religions, plenty of clergy live opulent lives when they can).

 

I would see the latter as a way to cleanse your soul. By the sweat of your hard work the sin drops out of you so to say. (I hope that makes sense, it sounds good in german at least )

 

Exactly. When Builders throw someone into a work camp for some religious crime, they are actually trying to help them.

[Mortem Desino]

Hmmm. I'm getting a Master's of Divinity; maybe I should flesh out a short scriptural, systematic, historical, and practical theology of the Builder Faith this summer.

[demagogue]

Systematic Builder Theology, now you're talking. -b

[RJFerret]

The more nondescript the better in my mind, specifics cause problems with suspension of disbelief for players when an author expresses something differently. (And we already have missions that don't match some of the specifics described above.)

 

The more open we leave this the more options mission authors have to use this characters in their plots. As we only have a limited amount of ai, this may be an aspect considerable.

 

*nods

[Melan]

Indeed, that's also how I see it.

[Sotha]

I'd prefer some more flesh into the faith. Spring gave a good summary in #11.

 

That + commandments + virtues/vices would be all that is needed.

 

I am sure there are some variations in the customs depending on the city and congregation, but the fundamentals should be roughly the same and fleshed out.

 

Mapping and plotting is a lot of work and I don't have time to create a whole new religion.

[Obsttorte]

Sothaism

[demagogue]

For purposes of a wiki article, I think general & flexable is fine, so authors can adapt them as they need for their FM storytelling.

 

For fan projects like the FMs themselves or MD's systematic Builder theology, i think the more specific & real the better, to really immerse us in their world.

 

Other authors don't have to use a fully fleshed out theology & history, but I think personally it'd be fun to read even just as a kind of fanfic, and authors can use it if they want. And maybe different authors have slightly different versions. i think that's ok too as long as the basics are shared.