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Fan Mission: Poets & Peasants by Digi (6/29/14)


Digi

Poets Poll  

24 members have voted

  1. 1. Gameplay: Enjoyment, Fun, Frustration, Boredom, etc. (1 is worst. 5 is best)

  2. 2. Appearance: Visuals, Lighting, Textures, etc.

  3. 3. Story & Text: Briefing, Readables, etc.



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First congrats on the release!

 

Okay played mission on expert on Hardcore for ai visual and audio acuity.

 

Didn't have any real problems. The AI posed no challenge at all. I followed the Elite guard round the table and looted the plates with no difficulty.

 

I really don't like what you did with the tree outside the poets room. I got stuck on it several times. Next time, just make the leaves part a climbable bush volume, or make just the tree as is, as it's branches are climbable by default.

 

 

I think you needed to get some more beta testers, mission feels unfinished really.

 

 

 

Where's the railing?

post-529-0-62431400-1404488711_thumb.jpg

 

The stairs don't go to the top?

post-529-0-70180100-1404488718_thumb.jpg

 

All the tops of the iron fence are missing:

post-529-0-61342800-1404488716_thumb.jpg

 

I'm probably not supposed to get up here:

post-529-0-82999300-1404488713_thumb.jpg

 

This building is not sitting on the foundation wall:

post-529-0-50471700-1404489542_thumb.jpg

 

 

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

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It's the beta tested job to test for everything. From design and concept to finished product.

I didn't say that there was anything wrong with the beta testers that he had, just that he needed more of them.

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

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It's the beta tested job to test for everything. From design and concept to finished product.

I didn't say that there was anything wrong with the beta testers that he had, just that he needed more of them.

 

Fair enough, but all but one of your suggestions are inconsequential and most likely intentional. If I went around suggesting little choices like that were changed in my actual job, I'd get the worst of worst reviews. It could be the difference between tight-ass companies with a strict no-subjective-interference policy and the TDM more-like-focus-grouping approaches to testing, but I noticed all but the last and didn't suggest anything. The majority of the effort went into adding things that I imagine you took for granted, which is good.

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The stairs would be my doing (there were multiple revisions with changes to stairs to fix AI pathing, I replaced that model toward the end). So the aesthetics of that I take responsibility for.

 

Testing's also a matter of priorities though. A couple of the things pictured were flagged, and decided against altering. There were game-play affecting things implemented instead. Wise choices in my judgment.

 

More voices finding the same things wouldn't have altered them. Conversely, more voices with opposing subjective viewpoints often water down projects (too many cooks). And sometimes additional beta tester's feedback is nothing more than, "I played it, it worked, congrats." (That was the actual feedback from a couple on my very first mission's initial beta round. Then there was an experienced mapper who suggested subjective design changes that didn't match the venue, and others that didn't make structural design sense.) But yes, I agree there were limited testers here, however one of them is not just pro, but also rather talented at it (not me!) I believe Digi accurately called it when he suggested it's a small map that wouldn't require a massive amount of testers--I imagine next time (if he's still willing for there to be a next) there'll be more.

 

In this case, there are other changes I'd personally make before those pictured. I fully expect Digi's next work to be more polished (in part due to your/our feedback). Nobody's very first map represents the work of a professional, experienced mapper. However in this case, the core elements were impressively executed and it initially was surprisingly clean. The changes made resolved non-apparent issues (compared to some of those, which are mostly apparent choices), and also provided knowledge for future creations.

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"The measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out."

- Baron Thomas Babington Macauley

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The stairs would be my doing (there were multiple revisions with changes to stairs to fix AI pathing, I replaced that model toward the end). So the aesthetics of that I take responsibility for.

 

Plenty of free-standing spiral staircases do that, though: it just depends on the distance between floors. If you're unlucky and it's a certain height that doesn't allow for contact, you'll either put an ugly step on the floor or leave a gap like that. I suppose you can tell which I think looks better.

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Broken ankles/feet would dictate the gap be closed :P

 

Whether the things I mentioned would have been fixed is not my problem. As a beta tester, if I noticed something like I reported I would post them in the thread, but it's not my job to fix them. If the map author doesn't want to fix them that's his perogative.

 

It's not like I was nitpicking and actively looking for bugs, I noticed these while playing the mission, which struck me as really odd.

 

I just took a look at the fence posts, they are models, so I understand why they weren't fixed.

However I just spent 4 minutes while on a call at work, and made a similar fence post out of brushes, which I think might also have less faces than the model one.

 

Anyways, I just looked at the map file, and I noticed that the last bug I posted about the see through building part. In DarkRadiant the building is fine:

 

post-529-0-65545300-1404509243_thumb.jpg

 

So it must be a DMAP error.

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

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It's most likely something around there is off the grid. Stuff disappeared like that for me when I'd rotate things and not snap them back to the grid afterwards, learned my lesson months ago when my entire map sprouted holes. As far as I can tell, this took a back seat to other things as it was never intended to be a flawless, sprawling mansion level, rather an extension of what the creator learned from the A-Z that would have been a shame to throw away. I wouldn't say that 8 big revisions in 2 days is anything short of break-neck, but little things like these fell by the wayside given time constraints. I'm still definitely prone to focus on things that actually affect gameplay or the level's aesthetic on a large scale, but RJ picked up that slack.

I just spent 4 minutes while on a call at work, and made a similar fence post out of brushes, which I think might also have less faces than the model one.

I think a good few dozen more hours' experience with DR might have had something to do with that efficacy.

Edited by Airship Ballet
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I had massive problems with that building disappearing. It was tested numerous times, and everything was snapped to the grid at least once. Sorry you had trouble.

 

I'm not sure what you mean about the fence though. I wanted them to be separate stakes. That was an aesthetic decision.

 

Limited time to talk... I'll look through the rest soon. But thanks for the feedback and discussion. All food for thought.

"Fancy burricks are afraid of dogs, if they encounter each other the dog barks and the burricks poop." - Thief: Deadly Shadows Game Designer

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Do remember my newness though, please. While I can't argue against or justify any of the items you found, and I'm glad to be made aware of them, I'm not sure they affect the overall playability of the level. Because, I'll be honest, given what was caught and fixed in beta testing, and knowing that something would be imperfect in the released level, that these are the biggest complaints is a huge relief to me.

 

...

 

On an unrelated note, is there any way to see how many times each level has been downloaded? I'd be curious not just for my own level, but to see total plays for TDM. Basically what I'm asking is, are we making these levels just for ourselves as we chat about them in the forums (here and/or TTLG, presumably), or is there a larger unseen audience that is only playing them?

Edited by Digi

"Fancy burricks are afraid of dogs, if they encounter each other the dog barks and the burricks poop." - Thief: Deadly Shadows Game Designer

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Pretty brief small mission and a good first effort for sure.

 

 

 

I started out by noticing the beggar to the left of the player start and looking between the buildings. Then I realized I could climb up and up and up on to the roof of the Fidcal school and on the opposite side I dropped down on to the wood post sticking out and went in to the window. Being up on the roof also allows the player to see the skybox and backsides of the map. With more FS dummy buildings surrounding the gameplay area, this would have been more believable.

 

After getting down to the ground I found the rope arrows and made my way around looking for openable doors which led me back near the start and the hole in the garden wall mentioned by the intro.

 

 

 

 

 

Interiors needs wood trim/baseboards/corner mouldings/crown mouldings/chair rails/etc. Openable doors need handles. That's about the only 2 things that made the environment seem unfinished for me.

 

 

 

The readables added a nice touch and loot clues, particularly the one in school room, helped to flesh out parts of the story that were irrelevant but added to the sense of place.

 

I think you have a good foundation here to build on in future mapping iterations. For being as small as the mission was, the layout afforded the player some exploration and curiousity which was really nice. Interior guard patrol was challenging but surmountable. A bit more detail and a few more personal touches which I'm sure you'll develop, would be welcome.

 

Overall a good first endeavour.

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So, an unseen audience but no definite download numbers? That's encouraging to hear, but my curiosity would be fully sated with specifics. Oh well.

 

@Lux:

 

Lol, wait, the building can be climbed? I legitimately tried that a ton. I thought the erroneous roof access was due to rope arrow, which was just a texturing oversight

 

 

Either way, not a huge deal, but kudos on the find, and thanks for the comments.

 

My next mission is going to be indoors. The insane vaulting in TDM is awesome as a player... Less so as a mapper.

Edited by Digi
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"Fancy burricks are afraid of dogs, if they encounter each other the dog barks and the burricks poop." - Thief: Deadly Shadows Game Designer

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Ah Cool first mission. Congrats.

 

IMHO The fences in the court yard area need topping rails. The rooms need skirting where the floor meets the walls in some rooms and the hole in the brick wall needs some debris strewn on the ground from the broken bricks, All in all this is a very good first mission. Mine is crap. Look forward to your next one Digi. I loved the idea of having to find the rope arrow to progress. Very cool:)

 

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Well, this was completed at an opportune time. My professional life just got turned upside-down. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but it does mean I won't have time for personal projects for the foreseeable future. Which is a shame, because I wanted to poke around in DR to make sure I didn't get "rusty" so to speak, even if I wasn't devoting a ton of time to a particular map. I'll just have more rust to shake off when I do manage to get back to mapping, whenever that is. Hopefully not too long, but I can't yet predict when my life will settle down enough again. Fingers crossed...

 

But thanks, Tr00per, glad you enjoyed it. I actually did consider some debris around teh hole, but it went into the "more detailed than I'm intending this first mission to be" category. I just assume TDM's faux-Garrett (does he have a name?) found the time to remove any incriminating debris during his weeks-long investigative period.

"Fancy burricks are afraid of dogs, if they encounter each other the dog barks and the burricks poop." - Thief: Deadly Shadows Game Designer

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Very nice little mission with a good puzzle after the main bit of larceny. I just finished but short of 15 loot so I'm going back in :) I do like being short of resources and having to make do or find stuff by the way. Not sure how others got back from in front of the school without being spotted by the door guards but I was very pleased when I managed to

 

steal a broadhead from the patrolling archer and used it to create a distraction.

.

Hope your work settles down soon and lets you get back on the case.

 

So, an unseen audience but no definite download numbers? That's encouraging to hear, but my curiosity would be fully sated with specifics. Oh well.

I'm just as curious, I'm sure many are too. I don't know whether there are numbers available from individual mirrors, but even if there are we'd have no idea how much they understate by, what with TDM and mission packs being available via torrents or even magazine cover disks.

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I don't know whether there are numbers available from individual mirrors, but even if there are we'd have no idea how much they understate by, what with TDM and mission packs being available via torrents or even magazine cover disks.

I would assume, that only a minority is not using the ingame downloader to get their supply of missions. Whatever source feeds that ingame downloader should therefore be able to count nearly all downloads (minus a tiny and most likely fixed amount of well-informed betatesters and forum dwellers).

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This mission was a bit of a let down to me. I read about a cool little heist but what I played was more of getting from the big room into the little room and .. well going back to the big room.

 

I appreciate your efforts but you really need to put a little more into this mission until it's finished. :(

"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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PS: Reading through the previous posts now it seems like I am the only person really critizicing you. I just want to make clear that I really like your first effort and that it's playable. Don't let my critique get you down, but you can make so much more of this little mission. A few more details and routes. Better AI paths. So few work time for so much more play fun! :)

"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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This mission was a bit of a let down to me. I read about a cool little heist but what I played was more of getting from the big room into the little room and .. well going back to the big room.

 

You evidently missed quite a bit. That's one (unkind) way of describing the minimal way to complete the objectives, but there was plenty more optional content. Missions don't have to be large to be "finished". This one had all the mechanics in place IMO which is an achievement for a small mission, especially a first one.

 

A few more details and routes. Better AI paths. So few work time for so much more play fun! :)

There were tough spots too, and puzzles to solve. Even though they weren't obligatory for the objectives. I guess an extra objective might have helped make sure everyone got to see them.

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Hmm.. Then I must have missed a big part of it, since I was done with the mission in about 10 mins... :mellow:

 

It's a deliberately small level. There's more than just the main house, but also not a ton more. If you followed the readables' clues to the poet's loft and explored briefly above a couple of the ancillary buildings, that's all there is. But it was never intended to be anything more...in fact, the original layout I had planned was even smaller. So I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it, but if the size was the primary complaint, I'll happily concede the point.

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"Fancy burricks are afraid of dogs, if they encounter each other the dog barks and the burricks poop." - Thief: Deadly Shadows Game Designer

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