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RIP Robin Williams


Goldwell

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People who are clinically depressed aren't thinking rationally. Asking them to is like asking someone with OCD to just relax.

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Perhaps, but what if nearly everybody whome you would have called a friend in life just ignores you? What if you tried to talk to them and after months went by, almost all of them still did not respond? All of the material crap in the world will not make you happy if you feel as though everybody ignores you on purpose. I've got *two* friends who actually acknowledge my existance. If I try to talk to them, they respond. Perhaps not right away, but they do respond.

 

I personally believe people have a right to do what Williams did, for various reasons. Consider a drunk driver who does double the speed limit. He crashes, killing several people. Our drunk driver somehow survives though. Now mr. drunk gets to spend the rest of his life in a cage. I'm not arguing with that, I just believe Mr drunk needs to have the option of suicide. In some ways, its better for him, and better for society as well if he chooses suicide. He doesn't have to sit in a cage for the rest of his life and society doesn't have to build a cage suitable for yet another condemned person. My personal belief is that it isn't about humanity. We want to keep that drunk alive and in the cage so that we can point at him, mock him, and enjoy his displeasure.

 

Also consider a person with a terminal illness. Why would they want to spend ages suffering in a bed with no cure as their condition slowly gets worse? There is no "race to find a cure" for a lot of medical conditions, because there are "more important" things to focus on, whether they be the pointless war on drugs or increasing the survailance state. Medical costs are sky high. In this instance, its like society is forcing him to stay alive just so they can leach off him.

 

It would be interesting to read about what was going through Mr. Williams' head and what finally made him do it. There's always a reason.

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--- War does not decide who is right, war decides who is left.

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Suicide is very unconsiderate of you, especially towards your parents and other people close to you.

 

It is sort of the pinnacle of selfishness, kinda... Your final escape from yourself, for yourself. Because you are too lazy, weak or hopeless to persevere forwards, you throw away everything you and all the people around you invested in you.

It's your final escape from this very "market/performance" mental set!

As I said love is NEVER earnable (there's no meritocracy in love) nor an "investment". It's a delusional rationalized foolishness (and mind foulness?) to think otherwise.

Edited by lowenz

Task is not so much to see what no one has yet seen but to think what nobody has yet thought about that which everybody see. - E.S.

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Yeah, I usually don't care much for celebrities but this is just terrible.

Depression is often dismissed as trivial, or thought of as something that has a cause, like general sadness. It's a medical condition and it can kill if untreated.

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Suicide is very unconsiderate of you, especially towards your parents and other people close to you.

 

It is sort of the pinnacle of selfishness, kinda... Your final escape from yourself, for yourself. Because you are too lazy, weak or hopeless to persevere forwards, you throw away everything you and all the people around you invested in you.

OK Sotha, I don't know you and I don't know what you went through in your life, so I'm sorry if I say any bullshit.

If I may, I think you can't deal with that in absolute. You were not in Mr. Williams shoes. It's never that simple to a depressed person. I know because I've been there.

Anyway, I think it's all very relative. But IMHO what Mr. Williams did, was only in his human right!

To clarify, what I'm trying to say is: who are we to judge?

Edited by Jon Irenicus
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lowenz,

I am politely ignoring your "as I said X, it is delusional to think otherwise" comment due to obvious reasons.

 

Love can also be seen as a temporary malfunction in the brain, when -for some reason, probably for the preservation of the species- all kinds of chemicals are released.

 

Does a person fall in love because of the chemicals, or does are the chemicals released because we fall in love? I'm guessing the former... it makes more sense if you think about how uncontrolled and messed up people in love are.

 

Jon,

I agree that one shouldn't judge others. It really is a good rule of a thumb. I'm just saying that with work one can accomplish great feats. By giving up one accomplishes nothing. Only the invidual themselves can save the most important entity in their existence: themselves. After all, you desperately need you to experience the reality around you.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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I think for at least half my life I was considered terminally ill, and suffice to say my childhood wasn't great, because this isn't the place to go into it. Depression sucks, but I'm also grateful for the chance to go through it thanks to the perspective it gives once you come out. I'm not talking about appreciating life and all that, because it's a given, but more the lesson it taught me to stop caring about certain things. It knocked a lot of naivety out of me, in other words. The one thing I'm grateful for is that it stopped me from assuming people were innocent until proven guilty, but rather guilty until proven innocent*, and it's helped me avoid a lot of upset as a result. That came about from life being literally too short. There are always people who will tell me that it's wrong, and that it's borderline misanthropy, but it's saved me a lot of trouble when I haven't given the benefit of the doubt to someone and they have, nine times out of ten, turned out to be someone I wanted nothing to do with. With so many people on the planet, taking your chances and loving thy neighbor just doesn't work anymore. It doesn't mean be anti-social, but you become so much less gullible. It's helped me with scam artists while backpacking so much, the kind who ask to take a picture of you and take your camera, if there's need for a direct, less abstract example. It makes you grow up far too fast when it happens early, but it also makes you a lot stronger for obvious reasons. I don't waste my time anymore, and while that doesn't mean becoming an adrenaline junkie and going base jumping off a mountain because whoo, viva la vida, it does mean take things at your own pace and don't get wound up in the problems of others. I came to respect myself, became considerably colder but also considerably wiser thanks to all that dark thinking I got up to, not to mention a whole lot kinder to those who were genuinely good people.

What I'm saying is that it's a shame he didn't weather the storm, because as horrible as it is it's something of an enriching experience once it's passed. As has been said, almost everybody has entertained the thought of suicide at some point, usually just internally sating curiosity via hypothesis. It's such an easy thing, and it's so easy to imagine all the noise dying out and all the problems fading away once they've mounted up. That may not seem as true to some, but scientific understanding and rationalisation of a depressed mind only goes so far. It's important to not pretend like you understand depression unless you've been through it, because while it's diagnosable, there are no greater experts on its nature than those who suffer from it. Even now, if I were to have talked to him or any number of truly depressed people, I'd have no idea where to start because it's not the same. It's a rare case in which just about every instance of it differs in some major way, due to its very nature of being constructed by the whirlwind that is a depressed mind. There are few things on the planet that you can't learn inside and out via documentation and experience, but this is one of them. It's a shame that he didn't get help, or that his help wasn't the right kind for him, but while you can easily say that it's a waste of life, the grass can seem an awful lot greener elsewhere. When there's no green grass left other than in death, you need a miracle to talk you out of it. It would be a hundred times better to not do it, not even they debate that, but they can't convince themselves and it's incredibly difficult to convince them yourself. The bottom line is that the answer is to not do it, and that never changes, but it's such an obfuscating phenomenon that it can become borderline impossible to understand, acknowledge, accept and act on that answer.

 

More like sceptical until proven innocent. I have no idea why I said guilty, probably because I don't proof read.

Edited by Airship Ballet
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Like you, I'm a bit of a cold person. I have had scammers call me. I rudely told them in a loud voice "no, I'm not interested". The guy then told me to shut the fuck up. I told him "make me". He then said "I will". I then told him "I hope you get cancer".

 

After this, the guy's demeaner changed from a hostile one to a stunned one. He was like "That's cold dude, I can't believe you would say that to somebody." Even now, I do not regret telling him that. Its like you say, we get tired of people's bullshit; trying to take advantage of us at every opertunity. It makes me smile to imagine that (if that guy does end up getting cancer some day), he will recall the cold person who wished it upon him in the past.

Edited by lost_soul

--- War does not decide who is right, war decides who is left.

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Well, by cold I meant detached until I warm up to somebody, in that everybody's a potential pain in the ass unless we talk, in which case they're a confirmed pain in the ass or a cool person. I'd never wish cancer on anybody, and that was pretty harsh of you whether you've got experience with it or not. Really not cool, pretty childish in fact. Yes, they're a pain, but it's their job, probably the only one they could get. Even though you probably didn't literally mean "I'd be so happy if you fell terminally ill and had your family torn apart right here and now," just saying it is bad enough.

 

I don't mean outwardly hostile when I say that I changed my outlook, I mean that I stopped trusting people by default and instead had them earn trust. That was only a grounds to talk about living through depression though, not derailing the thread to talk about personal experience because this isn't the place. As far as the dog goes, it depends on what kind of attachment you had to it. If it was somebody else's idea to get it, and you never really got attached, you're not very likely to have an extreme response. If you were, it's just a coping mechanism or you simply feel differently with animals than you do people.

 

Nobody will ever listen to you unless you make yourself heard, really. There are people who become complacent and, without realising, start thinking they know everything via experience. If they own a dog, they suddenly know everything about dogs after owning one for a year. In a situation where someone thinks they know more than you (and they very well might do, only be incorrect about this one thing), you either have to either drill your point home or risk being waved off. If you're saying "I told you so", you're at least partially to blame for not being insistent or persuasive enough.

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I meant _every_ word I said to that scammer. If I had a neighbor who tried to rip me off every day, and one day I saw their place being robbed, I would whistle and walk away. I had a friend who passed due to cancer a long time ago (before any of this). I still feel bad because I did not go to his funeral. The guy was really nice, but smoked like nobody's business. That is really sad. Smoking, drugs, and alcohol have never appealed to me at all but I still *am* against banning them... oops, I messed up there.

Edited by lost_soul

--- War does not decide who is right, war decides who is left.

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@lost_soul

 

I don't think you have mental problems, if you just saw your dog die and didn't react with the typical crying it doesn't mean you had any less love for them. Sometimes when terrible things happen we react in odd ways some people even laugh but it's not meant out of disrespect.

 

I was very close with my grandma from the moment I was born right up until she died and I remember when I heard the news I didn't cry either it was just a state of shock. But a few days later it hit me & then I was really sad, at the funeral I was the only one who wasn't crying but it wasn't a toughness thing I just couldn't express the sadness I guess, it still stunned me. I remember a lot of my asshole relatives were looking at me like there's something wrong as I was the only one who didn't cry but I feel like out of all of them I had the closest connection with her and just because you're crying the loudest at the funeral doesn't mean shit.

 

Also i'm really sad to hear about your dog :(

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No, definitely no mental problems, didn't mention that as I thought it was a given. People do react in different ways but they can all be rationalised and followed back to the cause. The cause in this case is definitely not any sort of discrepancy. The cancer thing would be worrying if you literally meant "please die slowly and painfully in a hospital bed while your friends and family cry themselves to sleep of a night" but, as usual, it's more of a "I really hate you right now, get out of my life" sentiment. It's the same as people grossly misusing the term 'retarded'.

 

I'm with you about self-inflicted illness though: I permanently fell out with a friend when I said I have limited sympathy for people who smoke or drink themselves to an early grave without any justifiable reason (depression, escapism etc). I said that I feel more sorry for those they left behind in their own hubris, which I suppose docked me friendship points as a common impulse is to view dead people with admiration despite how they acted in life. I had a great grandmother who was mocked and whined about behind her back no end, never a good word said about her, yet everybody acted as if she were a saint once she was gone. It confused Merry Shortpants Jr no end, as I was the type to very loudly ask my Mom why that man in earshot over there had no hair.

 

Emotional issues, if present, are NOT necessarily mental health related! Mental health is totally another level!

 

Issues is the wrong word entirely, as it implies it's even remotely anomalous. That kind of reaction is actually very common. Those who are used to being loud, bubbly or just generally under the public eye (read: crappy social life revolving around the affairs of other people) are the type to react like that. Most will internalise and process it to one side over a considerable amount of time and, once they've subconsciously worked through it, get hit by the reality of it, as Goldwell did.

Edited by Airship Ballet
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Love can also be seen as a temporary malfunction in the brain, when -for some reason, probably for the preservation of the species- all kinds of chemicals are released..

Overcynicism? :blink:

Task is not so much to see what no one has yet seen but to think what nobody has yet thought about that which everybody see. - E.S.

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Does a person fall in love because of the chemicals, or does are the chemicals released because we fall in love? I'm guessing the former... it makes more sense if you think about how uncontrolled and messed up people in love are.

I'll say the latter, the former is called "attraction" :P

And about "how uncontrolled and messed up people in love are": that is called affective ineptitude / lack of a mature form of empathy and respect (and self respect too), cause love is a relation.

Edited by lowenz

Task is not so much to see what no one has yet seen but to think what nobody has yet thought about that which everybody see. - E.S.

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Well there's love and then there's obsession. I had a girlfriend a long time ago that started calling me at least four (yes FOUR) times a day. As you can imagine, it got real old, real fast. Useful hint for anybody out there, if you are in love with somebody, do not annoy the shit out of them. I (like everybody else) went through that teenage phase where you want to spend every waking second with somebody. I grew out of it though. Its just not realistic, practical, or even bearable.

 

This is also the reason I do not believe in a heaven or a hell. If I take an activity which I enjoy more than anything else in the world and I imagine spending eternity doing it, Said activity would eventually become hell. Even having to *exist* forever would eventually turn into hell... because forever is a *long* time. Understand?

 

At some point, I will just cease to exist entirely... and I'm completely cool with that.

Edited by lost_soul
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--- War does not decide who is right, war decides who is left.

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lowenz,

When I said people are messed up when in love, I was referring to myself. This is funny because how do I apply empathy on myself?

 

With all respect, do you notice that you batter people with arguments you do not agree with. If you target the argument instead of people, your debating skill will improve greatly. Self improvement is always welcome, don't you agree?

 

I personally try to avoid using the word love at all times. It is an emotion, a relation, a state, a verb, a noun. Nice, warm and fuzzy, feels good, yes, but it is a horribly inexact term. When people talk about love, there is a high risk of misunderstanding because of the inexactness. Like Jim Carrey in that movie: "I would do anything to fuck her. I must be in love!"

 

With the regard of how to deal other people, I recommend everyone reads the classical book by Dale Carnegie. Some really really basic stuff there, but people seem to forget them in real life. In the internet even more so!

 

I don't believe it is a good idea to harden or make yourself cold towards others in order to protect yourself. You could scare some really wonderful people away! Me? If people seem deliberately distant or incomprehensively rude, I usually don't want to dig deeper. I try to be friendly, polite and nice towards others and it is delightful when you instantly link with another. That happens relatively often, actually.

 

I gladly (and consciously) give others opportunities for minor betrayals and stabs in my back. It is an experiment. If they don't betray me, I am delighted and will increase the level of trust. If they betray me, I'm happy they revealed their true nature relatively inexpensively. And no, I would not give my camera/phone to a stranger, but would do my most to help them with a secure manner.

 

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Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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I don't believe it is a good idea to harden or make yourself cold towards others in order to protect yourself. You could scare some really wonderful people away!

 

You've taken one sentence out of context and run away with it. Cold was used as in comparatively colder, compared to the naive and bright-eyed person I was beforehand. It's a case of not making the first move or giving people the benefit of the doubt, and instead leaving them to approach me solely based on their own merits, rather than any positive bias I've started with towards them. It's rarely about self-preservation anyway, rather avoiding irritation.

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There's some misunderstanding going here!

 

I'm just saying that having a messed up (love) relation in a couple (not a relation with your own "love" emotions!) is due to lack of empathy / lack of respect! And sometimes lack of self respect too (think about abusive relations).

Edited by lowenz

Task is not so much to see what no one has yet seen but to think what nobody has yet thought about that which everybody see. - E.S.

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Sadly, I cannot read minds yet (working on it, orbital mind control lasers will be launched later this year), nor do I know how naive you were, but this is what you wrote:

"Well, by cold I meant detached until I warm up to somebody, in that everybody's a potential pain in the ass unless we talk, in which case they're a confirmed pain in the ass or a cool person."

 

And I don't think it is a good idea to consider "everybody's a potential pain in the ass" be it self-preservation or irritation avoidance. Why not meet others from a clean slate, without prejudice?

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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