Merchants and shops, using loot as currency

[MirceaKitsune]

Another idea has been on my mind a lot... pretty much since I entered my first TDM mission; Before starting some missions, you get a menu where you can buy certain items and equipment within a given amount of gold. This is a nice feature! But since TDM missions often take place in towns where you encounter civilians, and you steal a lot of loot during missions (which you currently don't spend on anything), I would love to see it extended to supporting in-world shops.

 

The idea is that, some NPC civilians could have stuff for sale. When you select and click them, you get a list of the items they offer, and the price in a currency they're willing to trade them for (Jewels, Goods, Gold). This can include normal tools, like potions or arrows, as well as items related to objectives or progress, such as keys or letters or a special item. Note that, if it's an item necessary to complete the mission, the mapper must make sure you can't spend the loot you find past the point where you can no longer afford that item, and that killing the merchant fails the mission or makes the item drop.

 

I assume this might be possible with scripting already, although I haven't seen shops in any missions so far, nor interactive menus of any sort... so I assume an external script is needed at best. As with other things, I wanted to suggest adding this as a mainstream feature, ready for mappers to find and use. Does anyone else agree, and support being able to spend the loot you steal on items you can buy from NPC's?

[Springheel]

In world shops are already possible:

 

 

I don't know of any missions that have used them yet, however.

[Sotha]

I think it would be silly for a thief to enter a robbable place, steal items, get out, sell stuff, buy more thieving gear and get back into the robbable place and steal more.

 

The present system is adequate: the thief prepares for the heist with proper gear, steals stuff, and gets out before anybody notices anything.

 

Ingame shops could work with some rare special cases, and can be done if really needed, but it definately is not a core feature.

[SteveL]

I love the idea of in-game shops for some unidentifiable reason, and I have one in a map I was working on last winter, a map that got put on hold when I got into game coding in the spring. It wasn't as cool as the one in Springheel's demo vid, but now that I've watched the vid, it will be if I ever resume work on that map The motivation for using an in-game shop is that the player has a motive for collecting loot other than the rather dull motive of hitting a loot objective. You need a map with several areas, that are tough to get between without the right equipment. The player can choose between getting past a pinch-point the hard way, possibly involving elaborate and well-timed distractions, or getting past it by buying equipment from the in-game shop that's only affordable if they do some advanced thieving in the current area.

[MirceaKitsune]

Thanks Springheel, that looks pretty nice! It's actually a simpler and better system... no need for a menu, just have the items deduct gold when you pick them up, and the prices on a note.

 

And I see your point Sotha. For short and simple missions this isn't very useful... unless you say meet an illegal merchant in a sewer who stole some arrows and quickly sells them to the player. I'm mostly a fan of stealth games with large city hubs however... the kind where you meet a lot of people, get many different missions from everyone with a problem, or even go to a bar and consume a few wine bottles for fun as you think over your objectives. TDM supports worlds like this I think, and I'm quite eager to see and create a few... but I know that most missions don't focus on this part much, since the objective is to get a job done as quickly as possible and not waste time around the place.

[Springheel]

I'm mostly a fan of stealth games with large city hubs however... the kind where you meet a lot of people, get many different missions from everyone with a problem, or even go to a bar and consume a few wine bottles for fun as you think over your objectives.

 

Which stealth games do this?

[Bikerdude]

In world shops are already possible:

Do we have a copy of this somewhere? and/or a link on the wiki..?

[Obsttorte]

http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=In-game_shop

[MirceaKitsune]

Which stealth games do this?

The DeusEx series are the main ones I've been into, though it's produced 3 separate games by now. I'm not sure if it's actually known as a stealth game per say, since in its case stealth is a predominant option but not always a primary focus. I think I heard about similar ones, but can't say I've tried them.

http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=In-game_shop

Thank you! That will be very helpful for when I'll start TDM mapping, and get to making any large interactive cities. I am however curious... why not include that script in TDM, to make it more accessible and encourage more people to use it?

Edited December 22, 2014 by MirceaKitsune

[demagogue]

It's a throwback to cRPG tropes, and generally taking things out of GUI and putting them into the world, which is an immersive sim trope. I don't think it's good for every map, but I'd be happy to see some mappers make their own maps more RPGish or immersive sim like if it's their personality. My answer to all of these debates is for mappers to go with their personalities within the limits of the engine.

[elwing]

shops would be useful for a RPGish campaign using a hub or something like that, short of that, I'm not sure there's really a point...

[Bikerdude]

http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=In-game_shop

No mp files though aka the start map, so mappers could simply copy what they wanted etc.

[Obsttorte]

You just have to copy the script and set some spawnargs. I think mappers will be able to deal with that

[Gestas]

In game shops are much more immersive than menu shops.

 

It also gives the player a chance to change mind, scope location to see what's required, etc..

 

depends on map too, if the player is dropped in yard of mansion for a hiest it's not needed and would be silly. But that's also a lazy mission start on authors part. Would be more fun to wander across town, stop at shop, maybe loot some small spots then climb a wall into mansion yard...

[Springheel]

depends on map too, if the player is dropped in yard of mansion for a hiest it's not needed and would be silly. But that's also a lazy mission start on authors part. Would be more fun to wander across town, stop at shop, maybe loot some small spots then climb a wall into mansion yard...

 

That might be a matter of taste. If the goal of the mission is to rob the mansion, then I want to start the mission relatively close to the mansion, not on a shopping trip on the other side of town.

 

The idea of "shops" that just sit out in the open selling explosives and illegal tools also doesn't make a lot of sense in most cases.

 

In-game shops have their place, but I think the places they would work are the exception rather than the rule.

[VanishedOne]

A mansion mission author can put time and effort into a city section, or put the same resources into augmenting the mansion around which the mission is designed, or build a larger mission but take longer to do it. None of those options strikes me as inherently 'lazy'.

[Xarg]

By that logic aren't Thief 1 and 2 lazy? Unless we're advocating for a T3 style in-world shop that guards just walk past, probably eternally wondering if that red hand print means it's a "massage" parlour..

[VanishedOne]

By that logic aren't Thief 1 and 2 lazy? Unless we're advocating for a T3 style in-world shop that guards just walk past, probably eternally wondering if that red hand print means it's a "massage" parlour..

In at least one case they think it's a lingerie shop.

 

Of course, really lazy people would just adapt a bunch of existing maps, and who'd look forward to a thing like that? :-P

Edited January 14, 2015 by VanishedOne

[Destined]

I agree, that in-game shops are not useful for the typical "heist" missions, but personally I am also a fan of city-hub structures, like in T3, where you have to find a fence for each loot-type and shops for the different tools. But these on the other hand only make sense for campaigns, not single missions. So far, I am not very experienced, but I think it is a good way to build a campaign: You start with a city-hub and add transitions to different missions as you develop the campaign. This way it is possible for players to already play existing missions and the developer does not have to publish it all at once.

 

Guards walking past them does make sense, if the shops have a front and only insiders know, what they really sell.

[Noordung]

Shops could be useful as additional objective in bigger maps. You get a tip there is shop hidden and shops sell something that might help you in mission.

Or in game shop could be alternative buying in campaigns.