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Arrows


grim

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Here's a question about arrow damage. In the original games, arrows can't kill someone who's alert, even if they're shot in the face (I mean first shot)....that always kinda bothered me. I realise it would be really easy if you could always kill the guards with one arrow. But how about making it harder to hit them.

For instance, if a guard is running up to you, you have to aim quickly and perhaps shoot while moving. Well one possibility would be to first of all make the bow quite wobbly when moving therefore making it very hard to hit a guard while walking, and second, why not require the bow to take a little time to get stable. I mean if you shoot right away, the aim will be pretty bad, but if you keep the arrow nocked (not too long or it would get annoying, obviously it needs to be balanced) it stabilises after a while, thus making it hard to shoot a guard who's alerted to your presence.....

okay I hope you get the idea. And if you're not allowed to kill guards anyway, it doesn't really matter....

 

I really like what I'm seeing here as I really enjoyed all Thief games. Good job!

I just thought I'd give some of my thoughts....you probably discussed something like this before...

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Dude, am I ever happy you brought this up.

 

Last night i'm lying in bed (where I do most of my important thinking) and I'm pondering over just how retartedly stupid the water, moss, and fire arrows are. I want all of you to think back to the very very 1st time u opened the first Theif game you played, where you were presented with these lamer arrows. I obviously came to accept them, because they are such a huge part of the game but honestly, i wouldn't be the least bit upset to see them go. In my opinion the only arrows worthy of such a great MOD as the dark, are the broad, noisemaker, and rope arrows. I can't STAND the others. I've never liked them.. they always seemed pretty corny.

 

water arrows - could easily be replaced by some sorta container or vial which holds water, that the theif could toss at or pour on(if he were close enough to reach) a torch to extinguish it. Same principle, no lame 'water arrow'. wtf is a water arrow? haha.

 

 

moss arrows - moss should be taken from a bag or pouch on the theifs belt, and thrown down on the area that is particularily noisy. The idea of shooting an arrow that would make 10x the amount of noise as a skilled theifs footsteps on the surface, and then watching the spectacular little moss tip explode into a HUGE area of mossed surface is just about the most retarted thing in the game. alksdfjlkajsd

 

 

fire arrows - are these damn these even necessary? i think they are extremely lame. personally I'd rather have a little sac of gunpowder or something that i can place, or throw which detonates and causes damage for an area (a.k.a. multiple target damage). As for 'relighting' torches... could you be any more hurting? Give the poor theif a match or something damnit. i hate how i can't relight the candles n stuff. it's sooo blasted annoying.

 

 

gas arrows - these are definitely cool, but again why from an arrow? why not a vial or something more realistic? heh heh. The distance at which the player is going to be able to accurately target an enemy from could easily be reached by a hand thrown vial. I dunno. Eliminate the cheese-ball elements i say.

 

Yes it will take more animations and models (instead of reusing and recoloring the tip of the arrow), but it's so worth it.

Comes back down to being a matter of opinion though. Does anyone actually like those hokey magical arrows, or would you rather see a cool animation of your character lobbing a glass vial at the wall above a torch, or a gas vial in the midst of a group of guards?

 

opinions plz?

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I actually like the arrows. If your thief is going to carry around an awkward bow, at least make it useful.

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Well, water arrows are necessary since they let you yake out torches from a distance. They're a core part of gameplay for most people. A bow is much more accurate then throwing a water balloon or something.

 

Moss arrows are stupid, he could easliy use his cloak or another piece of cloth to thow down, plus he could pick it up again and leave no evidence.

Fire arrows are actually explosive arrows really, they are a ridicuoous and very messy, noisy thing for a thief to carry, yes.

 

Gas arrows - again, like the water arrow, having it in arrow form makes it much easier to aim, and you can shoot it over a much larger distance than a throw.

 

Noisemaker arrow - pointless waste of time, when he could use stones or a coin or something to distract guards, plus the guards are bound to find the noisemaker arrow and know that a high class thief with access to expensive tools has just arrived.

 

Broadheads - no place for these in a thieves arsnal either, they are the weapons of an assassin, they are basically the sniper rifle of the Thief games.

 

Nope, rope arrows are all I use.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

character models site

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I actually like the arrows.  If your thief is going to carry around an awkward bow, at least make it useful.

yeah - it's useful for using broads, noise and rope. hahaha.

 

Oddity's point about the noisemakers is very true. I think more than anythign I just like the firecrackers. hahaha. stones or an object would be a much better alternative. But be honest, when have you EVER needed to take out a torch from a distance that's greater than what a skilled theif could easily cover with a throw? Usually you are pretty close to the torches you need to extinguish. Just outside the light radius of the torch.

 

As for the broads... I like to think of my character as a theif / assassin. Very useful for a stealthy kill when you don't want blood on your new gloves. You just can't beat a lightning speed arrow to the face. It's good for taking out guards at a distance as well. I agree with Grim though. If you can aim it nice enough to hit them in the face, or neck... that should be it. When they are alert, they should be moving around enough that it would be quite difficult to pull off a shot to the face, or neck area. Depending on their level of alert, their amount of movement could be increased or decreased. Right now they sorta look around like idiots, into the dark areas they can't see, and stand still pretty often. Also, I think armor type, and placement of armor should definetely play a role in how many arrows it's gonna take to make the kill. A mangey peasant should only take 1 arrow anywhere from the waist up to kill.

Edited by encomium
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I've always thought the different arrows were really cool. And it's part of what makes the thief games so likeable to me.

Okay moss arrows could be taken out maybe...

But I'd almost say we should design more types of arrows...okay that might destroy the whole thing :)

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hahaha, nah it wouldn't destroy it necessarily. I had a feeling a few if not a bunch of people would really like them, which is unforunate. I think they are pretty noobish. (The arrows)

 

They dont add to the realness and importance of stealthy gameplay. I feel they take away from it by adding elements of corny fantasy & contradiction. feels like a great concept gone all wrong. <_<

Edited by encomium
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Thief is a fantasy game, in case the undead, mages and talking artefacts hadn't tipped you off. :)

 

We have had plenty of "anti-magic" and "anti-arrow" debates already. Some people on the team would like to see them all removed and create a medieval thief simulator. I happen to like the fantasy elements. To me, the crystal arrows are very unique, and it wouldn't feel like a Thief game without them.

 

That said, certain arrows are less appropriate than others, depending on where you're going. Taking fire arrows or mines along when you're robbing a mansion is silly. Taking them with you into the burrick caves is smart.

 

We have discussed adding alternative tools for FM authors to use instead of arrows if they wish. We're already planning on allowing players to throw pebbles instead of using noise arrows. It will be up to FM authors to decide what tools to allow--some may not allow any arrows at all!

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I certainly hope you guys are going to provide us with all the arrows of Thief 1/2 lore and design them similarly.

 

I personally like the water arrows and rope arrows, but wouldn't arbitrarily remove the rest because of my disdain for the others and then cloak it under personal opinion.

Loose BOWELS are the first sign of THE CHOLERA MORBUS!
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Didn't mean to suggest any of the arrows will be removed. They'll all be there. But FM authors may choose to disallow them for their own missions, and use alternative equipment (pebbles, poison darts, etc) instead.

 

Of course, the alternate equipment is something we probably won't be doing until after the initial release.

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I wasn't trying to convince you to remove them. I was just giving my opinion, and was curious as to what other's thought about them.

 

And Spring, gimme a little credit. I could practically feel the sarcasm slapping me in the face while reading that post. I didn't say the theif series didn't have any fantasy elements. I said the arrows add an element of "CORNY fantasy". But again, it's all my opinion which I stated from the get-go.

 

You all are def on the right track in terms of creating a mod which is built to bring back the same look and feel as the 1st and 2nd Theif games, with enhanced tools & engine.

 

As was mentioned, it can always be moded again once the foundation has been released.

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Personally I also always liked the fantasy elements. I also like missions where the fantasy elements are not so strong and to me it doesn't really matter if I shoot out a torch with a water arrow or something else. Well, I like shooting the bow, but the water arrow doesn't feel so fanatasy while playing it.

I think if a well balanced game is made which contains a "realistic" gameplay that could be quite interesting. Oddity would also probably like that, though we have different opinions on what "balanced" means. :)

Gerhard

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And Spring, gimme a little credit. I could practically feel the sarcasm slapping me in the face while reading that post.

 

Good natured sarcasm only. :)

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encomium wrote: Does anyone actually like those hokey magical arrows

I do.

 

encomium wrote: I had a feeling a few if not a bunch of people would really like them, which is unforunate. I think they are pretty noobish.

The people are noobish, or the arrows?

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Since we're making a toolset that allows anyone to make any kind of mission they want, I guess the person to pitch the removal of certain tools to would be the FM author.

 

Ideally we provide everything absolutely possible, good or bad, and then FM authors can pick and choose for their particular mission.

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I like the elemental arrows as well and they don't necessarily seem completely unrealistic either. I can picture someone actually creating arrows that have tips filled with water, gas or an explosive. The moss arrows however do seem rather unrealistic to me and I'll grant that it would be hard to put enough water into something on the end of your arrow that could put out a torch but hey, they're "magic" arrows right? I mean, why else would you find moss arrows growing out of the ground and water arrows floating in pools of water and of course gas arrows that just float in the air? <_<

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I like the elemental arrows as well and they don't necessarily seem completely unrealistic either.

 

Yes. Same for me. BUT! :)

 

I can picture someone actually creating arrows that have tips filled with water, gas or an explosive.

 

... you wont believe it, but we had this discussion long ago. While it might be possible to create an arrow with a very potent knock out gas or even a very potent explsive charge, the same is not true for water. The amount of water required to douse a normal torch is much more than an arrow can reasonable carry IMO. At least not the bow a Thief would carry with him, which limits him, because he can't sensibly carry a big strongbow with him while at the same time remaining unconspicious. Another problem would be the aiming. If you managed to create a water arrow that could do this, then you would still have the problem that you would require perfect aiming, because I doubt that the water would splash so nice that it really would douse a torch. The impact would splash the water over a big area which would certainly not douse a torch, because they are designed to withstand stronger currents op air, and thus are not THAT easily doused by design. :9

 

I'm not even sure about the explosives. The problem here would be to discharge the explosive in such a way that it goes into the direction where you need it. But I guess this would be easier then the water arrow. To disable humans it might suffice though.

 

The moss arrows however do seem rather unrealistic to me and I'll grant that it would be hard to put enough water into something on the end of your arrow that could put out a torch but hey, they're "magic" arrows right?  I mean, why else would you find moss arrows growing out of the ground and water arrows floating in pools of water and of course gas arrows that just float in the air?  <_<

 

Right. :) But still. At least the water arrow gave me a kind of feeling "It COULD work somehow." which is exactly what I expect from a fantasy story.

Gerhard

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I would add to the list of "realism" problems that packing more crap into the tip of the arrow makes the arrow heavier, which limits the velocity that the bow can impart to the arrow when the bow is fully drawn back.

 

So a really heavy arrow, like one holding a coil of thin rope inside, would leave the bow with something like 1/5th the velocity of a broadhead, meaning these arrows would fly like crap... imagine shooting a Toys R US toy bow, and that would be about the performance of your shortbow firing heavy arrows. :)

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I do.

 

 

The people are noobish, or the arrows?

I do too.

 

1: I am no noob either ;) , been playing Thief since 1.

2: I am currently finishing off a mod (so far for myself) for Thievery in which the guards search a much larger radius, much more light up when sneaking(changeable with ingame menu :) ) and walking, Mission failure if you get seen(changeable with ingame menu :) ) or mission failure when you alert a guard(changeable with ingame menu :) ) and (important) loot which guards notice that is missing, also, (for multiplayer) silhouette (basically you do not go invisible), also you can setup the ambient brightness (important to have it low for multiplayer - don't want the thief to be obvious ;) ) (changeable with ingame menu :) ), and other things along with re-textures of arrows, weapons, etc, (and most importantly) lockpicking fix. If you have your picks out and put them over a door, a lockpick menu comes up in which you see the pins etc, and lastly moss-removal. If you have the picks out, the model changes to say "weed poison" and a model shows up, all you do is keep it over a moss piece for 1.5 secs and presto!

3: I ALWAYS ghost (well, nearly anyway)

 

To my point: I love the arrows (except noisemaker - never used it in T1,2, or 3 - useless). However, I do respect your opinion just as much as anyone else's. Even when some people say Thief was about a hide-and-seek deathmatch.

 

--Dram

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I would add to the list of "realism" problems that packing more crap into the tip of the arrow makes the arrow heavier, which limits the velocity that the bow can impart to the arrow when the bow is fully drawn back.

 

So a really heavy arrow, like one holding a coil of thin rope inside, would leave the bow with something like 1/5th the velocity of a broadhead, meaning these arrows would fly like crap... imagine shooting a Toys R US toy bow, and that would be about the performance of your shortbow firing heavy arrows. :)

Speaking of bows, I made one in the Thief design last saturday (yes, a real one :) ). It flies about 10m at low pull back (don't wanna break it ;) ) and that's pretty good (considering a medieval shortbow shoots about 30 ;) ).

 

Anyway, I'll chuck up a screenie later. I love my bow :P

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