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DarkRadiant development funding


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In the light of the recent post by greebo, I propose to do some crowdfunding for future development of DarkRadiant, if anyone is interested that is.

 

I have a programmer, who can take on DR development (fixes and new features), but not for free. Please let me know what you think about this proposal.

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$20 per hr (he evaluates the task, comes up with hrs, and fixed amount is calculated). Well, nothing is certain in life. So, nowadays it's impossible to say for how long someone will be poking at something. I suppose as long as the money is on the table, he could work on it.

 

If there are only like 5 people who needs DR, then yeah, it won't work.

 

Too bad 2.0.3 was never finished as far as bug fixes :/

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We could probably raise the money, but...

 

So if this comes to pass, how do we pay greebo and the other DR authors that have already put so much into it gratis?

 

...this is the fundamental question. Collaborative fan projects and money don't mix well. No matter how it is done, there would be bad blood.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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We've been down this road over and over and over and it wastes everyone's time discussing it.

 

If $ comes into the picture, then I'll submit a bill for past work at the rate of $20/hr, 70hrs/week, for the last 5 years. That would make my wife quite happy.

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You voluntarily chose to spend time, for free, working on TDM as a hobby. You don't get paid.

 

I wish TDM team luck finding a programmer (only a volunteer, non the less!) as talented as greebo to dig DR and maintain it at the same level it was before.

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We've been down this road over and over and over and it wastes everyone's time discussing it.

@MS, I'm afraid you'll find this will be the default response from most of us. And we have managed alright so far so I'm confident we will be ok moving forward.

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Uhm, people willingly volunteer their time with TDM with the understanding that everyone who contributes does the same thing. One persons time is no more valuable than another persons. If you coder wants paid work then he should go look for a job. This is not a business.

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I don't understand. The first monkey voluntarily chose to do the task for a cucumber.

 

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I am failing to understand your logic. If I work on a project, at my own free will, free of charge and then one day I pretty much quit, why should I be concerned / upset if the team hires someone else to finish/fix the project and pay for it ?

 

I think the logic is pretty sound. Paying someone to maintain DR results in the monkey-thing and risks dissolving the entire TDM project, which is a risk we simply cannot take.

 

Perhaps a new developer will emerge. Perhaps greebo comes back. We have to wait and hope for the best. In the mean time, DR 2.0.2 has its quirks, but it is usable.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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You logic guys is skewed. The guy has a skill and experience with Radiant / idTech 4. He has a day job, and no interest burn his evenings for free. He can help, but would like to be compensated. If you guys live in a different world, by all means, keep living in it. There aren't whole a lot of people out there nowadays with a lot of free time and solid skill DR development requires. So if you reject help solely on a basis of .. I don't even have words how to describe it ("OMG, someone will get paid working on DR?! I want to be compensated for my past work on TDM?!" f@$king kindergarten) .. then it fine with me.

 

No need to further comment in this thread.

 

Personally I think I will fork DR and have _paid_ professional to fix what needs to be fixed (if it will be a reasonable fee).

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Yes, by all means, please lecture the people who have invested years of their free time in order to provide an award-winning product that others can enjoy for free about how selfish we are for wanting to keep money out of it.

 

:rolleyes:

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The problem with the internet is that too often things get suddenly quite sour.

 

I can understand your point of view, but you clearly cannot understand ours. Getting condescending isn't very helpful either.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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The problem with the internet is that too often things get suddenly quite sour.

 

I can understand your point of view, but you clearly cannot understand ours. Getting condescending isn't very helpful either.

 

I am sorry, I don't. And chances are no one will, outside TDM tight circle and similar projects who would accept donations, no matter how it came to be, but would refuse to open up their own wallets.

 

Here is basic example - if someone would port TDM to BFG engine, where all you need to do is drop new .exe and TDM would run without any content modifications, you would without a doubt accept that gift, even if it cost money to make such port. Except that if someone would approach you with such offer, you will say N-O, just like you did right now for help with DR.

 

I will never understand that, because I don't operate on the same principles. If I participate in a free project I absolutely love to work on because it's a hobby for me, I will not be going against paid help and won't be questioning why I am not being paid also. If I wanted to be paid while participating in a free project, that would be my initial condition.

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@MS, we arent trying to be argumentative or rub you up the wrong way...

 

I/we appreciate what your trying to do but as has been said a few times in this thread and countless times before we have taken a concious effort to keep money away from the mod. Surely you can respect our wishes and perspective on the matter and leave it at that?

 

I and I suspect other's, don't personally object to your idea. Its just that if one sub-section or part of the mod gets paid-for development it could potentiaonly cause problems down the line. For example, say the programmer says we can't use thier code at some point in the future, or said programmer applying a licence to thier code thats non compatible with the mod, etc. Its just some many verables and a possible can of worms that most people just want to avoid.

 

And Im sure I missed a bunch of other even more valid reasons.

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@Bikerdude: Perhaps you don't understand how GPL license works. Anything added to GPL code becomes GPL. A programmer can not apply any other license to the code added to GPL codebase. He also has no say-so how the code is used once it's in the codebase. It's clean slate, especially with agreement signed prior to executing work. There can be issues with art and assets, but not with GPL code.

 

Anyway, as I already said, point taken. Good luck.

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My take on that topic is this: There are fun things and not-so-fun things in every project (not just this one). It involves some kind of determination to take on the not-so-fun tasks that have to be done, these tasks are unavoidable in every project. Team spirit might help to gather motivation. Folks are doing these tasks because they know that somebody has to do it, knowing that all are sitting in the same boat. Once money comes into play, the motivational momentum towards these tasks are changing, that's just how people are functioning. Somebody working on one quality task getting $20 per hour, and someone doing the same quality work getting nothing at the same time? That's not going to work out well. The one person getting nothing will most likely stop contributing, at least I would if I were the one doing the same (or maybe larger) amount of work for free. I'd still like the project itself, but my motivation for the not-so-fun tasks would be down at zero level. Maybe maybe I'd do something for fun here and there, but you'd be surprised how few of them one is actually encountering in the current DR codebase. In the end there would only be paid folks left working on something. You can't have non-paid and paid coders in the same project team, that's my estimation.

 

Further questions: What if the one getting paid is delivering low quality? Who is going to fix it? Is the coder also getting paid if there are bugs, or will he have to be paid for the time fixing his own bugs? When is the code considered "done"? (This is a difficult question I regularly encountered in my day job, where people delivered solutions that ended up being fixed by myself long after the contractor was not available anymore. It was long after the solution was considered "finished", when the non-obvious bugs were reported by end users that are really really fun to track down. The contractors were supposed to help me, in the end I burnt quite some time working out the not-so-funny bugs myself, and afterwards I wished I had done the whole thing myself.) What if the paid coder turns out ot be working much slower than existing folks?

 

Finally, don't be offended if people don't share your views, just calling them insane is not nice. This topic has indeed been brought up a few times in the past, and the old-timers around here are of course somewhat tired to discuss it once again.

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Finally, don't be offended if people don't share your views, just calling them insane is not nice. This topic has indeed been brought up a few times in the past, and the old-timers around here are of course somewhat tired to discuss it once again.

 

I didn't. I said "whole level of insanity" not because of their views, but because of the fact that if I pay for it, it's awesome and accepted, but if TDM team needs to open their wallets, or even run crowdfunding - it's a no-no. Sounds quite hypocritical to me. If no money involved period, then it wouldn't be ok for me to pay for coding work, and TDM team accepting it. Or even pulling fixes/features for a repo where commercial work was contributed.

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If I participate in a free project I absolutely love to work on because it's a hobby for me, I will not be going against paid help and won't be questioning why I am not being paid also. If I wanted to be paid while participating in a free project, that would be my initial condition.

 

TDM IS a hobby.

 

If your friend wants a job, best not to look at a hobby.

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