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hide_distance broken again?


grayman
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13 minutes ago, MirceaKitsune said:

Yes: A limitation in the hiding code was lifted, the bug was that it was ignoring light entities entirely, now it allows the functionality of hiding those too like literally all other entity types. You aren't even making sense any more... now you're nitpicking at words to find a reason why I must be stupid because I supported a change you don't like. How much longer do we have to keep doing this? Because I'm not interested in entertaining it whenever I try to have a discussion here. Again I ask that you please let us discuss the LOD system without trying to start drama each time this comes up in some form, before this thread is gonna need to be closed over it. Thank you.

I am not making sense anymore? :D You seem to have a peculiar cognitive disorder, where you don't see difference between common knowledge and semantics, and what you make up about it in your hopes, dreams, and intuitions on any given topic. And then you mix it up and use in whatever convenient way you find at any given moment. Why do you think you should be the one who's constantly pushing for something, in a discipline where features or changes need to be meaningful and based on data, and not on feelings?

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No thread locking, let's just wait a little bit longer. There's still a chance that this might be the first time in the history of the internet for someone to change another person's mind merely by posting on a discussion forum.

I can feel it.

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56 minutes ago, duzenko said:

@MirceaKitsune Sorry, are you messing with @peter_spy on purpose? I sure appreciate your calm tone, but you need to understand that what you're doing here is positive reinforcement of his negativity

He has a way of provoking me to respond sometimes, doesn't matter any more really. Wanted to be sure you and the devs following this are aware of the bugs I found today... no emergency on my end, it's just so 2.10 doesn't come with any obvious breakage especially from a change I also supported and have part of the responsibility for, IIRC the next release is still months away. Should have followed my intuition and sent you a PM instead, oh well.

I hope there's nothing else I have to report or say on this matter again: It should be the last issue with hide_distance I'm aware of, the LOD code seems sparkly from what I'm seeing. I'm kind of in favor of closing this thread now or letting it die for a long time, I'm not aware of any other major issue that requires it, unless anyone thinks it may be useful in the future.

Edited by MirceaKitsune
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1 hour ago, roygato said:

The only one reinforcing anything is the "silent committee" for letting it continue.

It is hard to know when a trap is being created and springing to action without consideration is a recipe for entrapment.

Both of the participants in this "argument" have also exhibited "troll style" posts.

It could very well be that whatever action we take here might be used as propaganda to claim "The TDM community is toxic because, etc..." "TDM Admins are draconian..."

We have typically followed a forum moderation model similar to TTLG where discussions are largely unfettered unless they are outright offensive to people. Up to this point, most TDM members have been sophisticated enough where even heated discussions are filled with informative debate. There have been newer participants who have made things more challenging, and have provoked discussions about whether more strict moderation practices need to be enforced.

In the "good ole days" if anything controversial was posted the community would quickly swoop in to hash it out logically either agree to disagree or debate until boredom set in.

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Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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Didn't know anything I said came out as a troll style post. I did try to move on and keep to the discussion best I could, though some things felt I should offer a legitimate reply to as they were addressed to me.

Personally I tend not to care that much about those things any more: I get upset in the moment then move on. peter_spy looks like he can handle it too, doubt these arguments keep him from sleeping at night. Was worried about others being bothered by this, or getting the wrong idea about the community like you said. All in all this community has always been cool in the end, including now over this situation... if everyone else isn't falling into a long depressing sigh whenever it happens, I'm fine with whatever really. I know what real issues look like on and off this internet... only thing that can truly upset me is real malice crossing a certain line, which is in no way the case here, albeit stubbornness has its role.

Guess I've got to accept a feud has formed. No idea how, over what was supposed to be a mere code change of all things... not something that happens every day 😛 (someone who does development for a living is so gonna correct me on that). Only time something similar happened was in Nexiuz (now Xonotic) over a decade ago, where me implementing an universal reload system for all the weapons made one developer passionately hate me for the rest of their lives for reasons I never fully understood to this day 😄

Now that I got these thoughts off my mind, this thread feels like it needs to go in a long night's sleep to recover xD

Edited by MirceaKitsune
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1 hour ago, nbohr1more said:

It is hard to know when a trap is being created

It's not that hard when it's the same guy every time.

1 hour ago, nbohr1more said:

It could very well be that whatever action we take here might be used as propaganda to claim "The TDM community is toxic because, etc..." "TDM Admins are draconian..."

Right, so there is no point to talking about spooky silent committees and bans. Either moderate, or let people be, but don't push the onus on us peons to manage someone else's negativity.

1 hour ago, MirceaKitsune said:

 peter_spy looks like he can handle it too

No he can't, he'll go back and delete his posts if he gets reamed in an argument. The total opposite of "can handle it".

Edited by roygato
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10 hours ago, duzenko said:

@MirceaKitsune Sorry, are you messing with @peter_spy on purpose? I sure appreciate your calm tone, but you need to understand that what you're doing here is positive reinforcement of his negativity

It's funny that so many cultures associate speaking calmly as automatically being superior in a discussion. You can speak in calm tone and be completely clueless, while you can shout in anger and still have a point.

That said, I don't think it's about messing on purpose, it's just his MO. You've already seen it in multiple bugtracker entries too. He barges in, usually without checking wiki or forums on certain functionality, makes up his own ad-hoc interpretation of it, automatically assumes it is canon, and then it takes several people to explain him the "historical context", or that he mistakes bugs for features, etc. Then either he lets it go, or, if he is stubborn, he'll reply with walls of misinterpretation until the other party has no more energy for it.

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1 hour ago, peter_spy said:

That said, I don't think it's about messing on purpose, it's just his MO. You've already seen it in multiple bugtracker entries too. He barges in, usually without checking wiki or forums on certain functionality, makes up his own ad-hoc interpretation of it, automatically assumes it is canon, and then it takes several people to explain him the "historical context", or that he mistakes bugs for features, etc. Then either he lets it go, or, if he is stubborn, he'll reply with walls of misinterpretation until the other party has no more energy for it.

And this is how you choose to respond ?

"
You seem to have a peculiar cognitive disorder".
"...it stands for Level Of Detail, and not Lights Off, Dumbass."


Knock it off. This kind of language is destructive and harmful and has no place here no matter how much you disagree with someone. 

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33 minutes ago, kingsal said:

And this is how you choose to respond ?

After several pages of patient discussion, posting relevant links and referring to facts, which he ignored entirely, since his subsequent responses were still the same make-believe? Yes, unfortunately.

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8 minutes ago, peter_spy said:

After several pages of patient discussion, posting relevant links and referring to facts, which he ignored entirely, since his subsequent responses were still the same make-believe? Yes, unfortunately.

I think your missing the point. We don’t tolerate name calling and personal attacks regardless of how patient you’ve been. 
 

Clean it up, be respectful.

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7 minutes ago, kingsal said:

We don’t tolerate name calling and personal attacks regardless of how patient you’ve been.

I would say you do, when the punishment for that behavior is nothing.

10 hours ago, nbohr1more said:

Both of the participants in this "argument" have also exhibited "troll style" posts.

I've been following the discussion in this thread. Unless you have an example at hand, I'm gonna call bullshit. This is like an excuse a limp school administration will give when they let a bully go unchecked. "Man, if we punish him, his parents might call the papers, and that would be such a headache, so let's just say  'both sides' and call it a day."

As little as my opinion even matters, I don't care if anyone in particular runs the gauntlet and insults every member in this forum, myself included, but I do care a little when the mods try and manage it with complete absurdities.

Nobody is being mind-controlled to act as they do, we're adults here who can take responsibility for their own actions. Or words.

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4 minutes ago, peter_spy said:

After several pages of patient discussion, posting relevant links and referring to facts, which he ignored entirely, since his subsequent responses were still the same make-believe? Yes, unfortunately.

"I had to do it, they didn't admit they were wrong!"

++numberOfKilledThreads;

 

 

 

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IMHO It's a cultural thing above anything else

It could be quite appropriate in @peter_spy's society to commit a personal attack like that, or for @Kurshok to call for genocide by religion, or for @stgatilov to be blunt or for @kingsal or @roygato to stipulate their cultural rules must be followed by everyone else on the Internet

You can't really expect other nationals to follow your cultural code just because you invented the Internet

You kinda assume that @MirceaKitsune gets deeply offended and psychologically traumatized but in fact in his culture he may get that a lot every day and he simply chooses to not respond like this because he's a nice guy

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5 minutes ago, roygato said:

I would say you do, when the punishment for that behavior is nothing.

Well, we (speaking as TDM team members who are unfortunately forum mods too) could easily have pulled the trigger on the ban and lock buttons on several occasions already, but usually we prefer to handle this like adults (as you put it) and we talk it over, that's really the only reason this thread is still alive. 🙂 Though we all can remember people being banned in the past (it must have been two members over the past 16 years, if I recall correctly), it will happen if people are really asking for it.

I personally am pretty tired of seeing threads being bombed with that kind of bullshit. What hurts me the most is that this kind of thing is directly subtracted from the team's productivity. Devs as the only mods here have to deal with forum bullshit instead of developing source code or entityDefs.

So I'd really, really appreciate if everybody pulled themselves together and make this a nice place to be around, discuss and work on TDM stealth gameplay.

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2 minutes ago, greebo said:

Well, we (speaking as TDM team members who are unfortunately forum mods too) could easily have pulled the trigger on the ban and lock buttons on several occasions already, but usually we prefer to handle this like adults (as you put it) and we talk it over, that's really the only reason this thread is still alive. 🙂 Though we all can remember people being banned in the past (it must have been two members over the past 16 years, if I recall correctly), it will happen if people are really asking for it.

I get that, but doing unpleasant things is also part of being an adult. Sometimes you need to punish, when words fall on deaf ears, again and again.

4 minutes ago, greebo said:

So I'd really, really appreciate if everybody pulled themselves together and make this a nice place to be around, discuss and work on TDM stealth gameplay.

I think "everybody" is already doing that. It's just that there is one common denominator to all of these "bullshit" cases.

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2 hours ago, peter_spy said:

You've already seen it in multiple bugtracker entries too. He barges in, usually without checking wiki or forums on certain functionality, makes up his own ad-hoc interpretation of it, automatically assumes it is canon, and then it takes several people to explain him the "historical context", or that he mistakes bugs for features, etc. Then either he lets it go, or, if he is stubborn, he'll reply with walls of misinterpretation until the other party has no more energy for it.

I can totally understand how that is mighty annyoing. However, in the future, when the point of "no more energy" has arrived, just let it go with a brief "Please accept that you are wrong and that I will end this discussion by not posting anymore." or something like that. 😄 

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3 minutes ago, roygato said:

I think "everybody" is already doing that. It's just that there is one common denominator to all of these "bullshit" cases.

There are definitely more people posting bullshit on a regular basis on this forum and it can be quite exhausting sometimes to keep up the discussion with them. 😉 Also, it's not even that @peter_spy posts bullshit, because most of the time, he is actually just stating facts, but every now and then he can become rather vulgar, I'll give you that. 😉 

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3 minutes ago, STiFU said:

There are definitely more people posting bullshit on a regular basis on this forum and it can be quite exhausting sometimes to keep up the discussion with them. 😉 Also, it's not even that @peter_spy posts bullshit, because most of the time, he is actually just stating facts, but every now and then he can become rather vulgar, I'll give you that. 😉 

"Bullshit" being these pissing contests. I'm not arguing his knowledge on the topics he knows. I'm arguing he's the only one whose MO it is to insult people, as opposed to letting it go or "being respectful".

Again, if the mods choose to be hands-off, I'm more than fine with it, but the messaging is very mixed in this very thread.

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38 minutes ago, duzenko said:

You can't really expect other nationals to follow your cultural code just because you invented the Internet

Uh no, but we still have forum rules regardless. These seem pretty reasonable and universal. 

 

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59 minutes ago, duzenko said:

You kinda assume that @MirceaKitsune gets deeply offended and psychologically traumatized but in fact in his culture he may get that a lot every day and he simply chooses to not respond like this because he's a nice guy

It's fortunate that MirceaKitsune seems to take this easy, but it can't be excluded that others in his situation would respond - and have responded - by withdrawing from the forums. This is an important reason why our historically hands off moderation policy is being discussed again.

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There is something in English/American manner of speaking that looks like tons of sugarcoating and beating around the bush, at least when you come from some other country. In other cultures, e.g. Polish or German, people are much more blunt. When they see shit, they call it shit, not "unfortunate bowel byproduct" :D There is such a thing as being too polite, and it's regarded as contrived or superficial. It can also be an easy way to disarm any criticism or discussion, regardless of their substance. I've seen it bumped to absurd levels on TTLG, where I saw responses like "you're not our friend, you can't criticize us", or "since you don't like it like we do, maybe Thief isn't a game for you". Fortunately TDM forums are nowhere near that level.

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Our forum rules state that personal attacks and harrassment are off-limits. Coming from a specific country or culture doesn't give license to blatantly flout them, i.e. by alleging mental illness.

I believe everything that needs to be said has been said for now, so this thread can be locked.

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