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Should small static oil lamps be extinguishable up close?


Oil lamps  

31 members have voted

  1. 1. Should small static oil lamps be exstinguishable up close?

    • Yes
    • No
    • Yes or no, depending on a new gameplay setting.
    • Yes or no, depending on how mappers define them.


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This dicussion reminds me a lot of the Vampire Bloodlines fan patches.

You might not be aware, but I'm actually the guy who makes the Unofficial Patch for Bloodlines and I had a lot of stress during these "patch wars" because the conservative fraction just stole my work and disabled stuff they didn't like. In the end I added the option to my patch to either install it as "basic patch" with bug fixes only or as "plus patch" with all the improved and restored lost content. Maybe this is another reason why I kind of overreact to people seemingly not willing to include major new features and would really suggest to make all people happy by adding options. It worked perfectly in case of Bloodlines, the patch wars are long forgotten and my patch is the unofficial standard because it includes both trains of though! I know it's more work, but it's probably much easier in TDM as you can add any options you want and I don't like the other alternative sometimes mentioned here e. g. "do it yourself" because this might split the community!

Edited by wesp5
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Wow! Lots of discussion here.   I think the pinchable light is a matter for the mapper to decide. It is really easy to make a frob-extinguishable oil lamps and clone them around.   Let the mapper deci

That's not how game development should work for starters. Just because a few people may want something does not mean it should be added as an option in the menu. Once you start doing that for one th

I think you believe everybody here is conservative, or stubborn, or something, because they disagree with you. Like I said, make a variant, offer it up, do as you please, but accept that the people wh

I don't like the other alternative sometimes mentioned here e. g. "do it yourself" because this might split the community!

I can't see alternative light solutions not making it into the core mod if they're done well. If they didn't, they'd be released to mappers who would put them into their maps and allow everybody in the community to play with them anyway. Besides, an option would split the community into those who do and those who don't. Also, the more freedom you offer players to tamper with their difficulty settings, the harder it is to map for them. It's already difficult to balance acuity, and there are already people with settings on max complaining to me because they can't get through a mission completely unseen. Now I can't reliably use oil lamps because there's an option to render them completely defunct? It'd be the worst. It needs to be a separate entity that can be used, knowing for sure that it'll be switchable and is able to be placed as such.

 

If this is now just a thread where we're lamenting the folly of man I'll happily bail and let nothing happen at all.

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Now I can't reliably use oil lamps because there's an option to render them completely defunct? It'd be the worst. It needs to be a separate entity that can be used, knowing for sure that it'll be switchable and is able to be placed as such.

I still don't really understand that, are you planning a mission with no water arrows? The extinguishable oil lamps are not defunc, you just can save an arrow if you can reach them undetected which is not always possible anyway. You could also place them high enough so they can't be frobbed! A new entity would be possible too of course, but this wouldn't fix my original issue namely standing in front of a small oil lamp and not being able to snuff it out. This could be fixed by changing the old model so it looks as if this wouldn't work, e. g. by protecting it, but how would water arrows then work?

Edited by wesp5
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P.S.: AliminiumHaste linked elsewhere to the TTLG boards which I hadn't read in years. Sure enough someone posted on the TDM 2.02 release under annoyances: "- Candles and such cannot be pinched/dozed out (which should be a really easy feat, considering). Why do I need to waste a water arrow on these tiny light sources when I am standing right next to them??? - Lamps cannot smashed. AFAIK, things made of glass should be very much smashable." :)

 

Also what is the interactive candles option in the Thief Fixer setup? Something like I suggested here for the lamps?

Edited by wesp5
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I still don't really understand that, are you planning a mission with no water arrows?

No, I'm planning a mission with areas of varying difficulty, cost and encouraged approach. I want areas with pinchable wall lights and areas with a good reward that'll cost you a water arrow to get through easily. You need both, rather I want both. Like I super see the merit in extinguishable wall lamps, but you're just rattling on about realism and getting your stuff in and changing what's already there rather than expanding the options at hand. I think some time in the future I'll just go make one.

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I want areas with pinchable wall lights...

Just out of interest, how can this be done at the moment? I only know the useable candles that can be picked up and normally these are standing on tables and similar. Is there a pinchable candle wall holder version?

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Wow! Lots of discussion here.

 

I think the pinchable light is a matter for the mapper to decide. It is really easy to make a frob-extinguishable oil lamps and clone them around.

 

Let the mapper decide, but give them a set or recommendations so that gameplay experience would be as consistent as possible between missions. Do not do a global override. If the mapper wants to do lazor-beam extinguishable gas lamps, let them.

 

A good recommendation for the mappers would be:

1) electric lamps switch only

2) torches, fireplaces water arrow extinguishable only

3) gas and oil lamps frob or water arrow extinguishable

4) candles: frob, topple, water arrow.

 

Bonus recommendation: the easier the light is to extinguish, the more likely it should be flagged as relightable for the AI. (Minus candles, which the player can just hide.

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Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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A good recommendation for the mappers would be:

1) electric lamps switch only

2) torches, fireplaces water arrow extinguishable only

3) gas and oil lamps frob or water arrow extinguishable

4) candles: frob, topple, water arrow.

 

 

 

Yes please!

 

-I think recommendations should also expand a bit more. Electricity should only be available to the rich, government or military facilities, Industries banks, Manors and estates. It should be also recommended to have some sort of electric generator in those places where electricity available with the possibility of shutting down the electrical system.

 

-Torches mostly castles, forts (interiors) and homes and buildings (exteriors).

 

-Oil lamps and candles for churches and middle to poor residence interiors.

 

From an art direction point of view, oil lamps in the game sort of neutralizes the whole concept of electricity.

Edited by Taquito
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You might not be aware, but I'm actually the guy who makes the Unofficial Patch for Bloodlines and I had a lot of stress during these "patch wars" because the conservative fraction just stole my work and disabled stuff they didn't like. In the end I added the option to my patch to either install it as "basic patch" with bug fixes only or as "plus patch" with all the improved and restored lost content. Maybe this is another reason why I kind of overreact to people seemingly not willing to include major new features and would really suggest to make all people happy by adding options. It worked perfectly in case of Bloodlines, the patch wars are long forgotten and my patch is the unofficial standard because it includes both trains of though! I know it's more work, but it's probably much easier in TDM as you can add any options you want and I don't like the other alternative sometimes mentioned here e. g. "do it yourself" because this might split the community!

I was aware

The basic version still includes many restores and additions that some might not want as extra change. Thats what I mean with different approaches, where even the way the people think is different, in a way that one thing is too much a change for some, while it is no change for others.

 

 

The way I felt it, in TDM, the mapper is king+. I do not always like that.

There are inconsistencies, where I would really, really, really wish that outstanding parts are mentioned in a helptext. Like: Are vines usually climbable in this map? Are some pipes climbable... etc.

 

But on the other hand, that means, whatever the mapper wants to do with his map, he can be sure that the development of the mod will not change that.

 

If I can extinguish an oil lamp - and that wouldn't even need to be pinched, it could be turned down with a wheel stopping the fuel in some cases - it changes the way a map could be played. A path were I have to pass a lighted lamp, is suddenly cut in half for example, because half along the way, I just turn out the lamp - without a need to use a water arrow, thereby keeping my equipment for later. The rest of the way I can sneak, because its dark long enough at least. Not to mention that maybe the AI isn't set to light that lamp again, because the mapper "knew" there would be only the possibility to extinguish for example 5 lamps, and he wanted that those also stay unlit, if you use your equipment for them.

 

If i ever manage to get forward with my project, there probably will be some way to extinguish some torches or lamps without a water arrow. Because I think that would be useful. But it makes the way I have to think about maps different, if that is possible.

If someone later thought, it isn't realistic that a character can extinguish type X of a lamp, I really would like it to stay the same for my project, since I planned with that in mind.

 

Recommendations for mappers, and options, are something thats really helpful on the other hand.

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The digital ink running is not about the putting out little flames thing, it has been about wether to expect (and in this case clearly insist) the team to review every proposed changes to the gameplay at a whim, or if people proposing stuff could actually take things out of their hands, do the work themselves, and then present them to the team for appreciation, or to the community, for general free use.

 

I did this myself, I thought the builder's hammers looked a bit clumsy to wield with their big square heads, so I modeled an accurate war hammer model people used to use back in the day and submitted it to the community, in the hopes some people would find them cool enough and equipe them to a builder guard in their own mission.

 

Sotha is right, its about the mappers. A lot of the things people think should be done by the core game, are actually only sanely solvable inside a certain specific map situation. Just take a look at all the problems introducing birds in TDM would bring and how Goldwell solved it simply by using an animated crow in a scripted sequence, for building atmosphere inside his own map (http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/16811-cats-and-dogs/page-2).

 

I disagree with wanting mappers to never stray away from a certain set of agreed rules. Ive seen maps that dont even take place in the same time period or setting as TDM suggests. The game itself invites you to do that. Players should just be open minded and experiment the world around them. Or they can stick to what they already like and avoid unconventional missions. No need to get "frustrated" (as I have seen in many a review post out there).

Edited by RPGista
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The basic version still includes many restores and additions that some might not want as extra change.

I hope not! I continued to make the Bloodlines basic patch more and more basic at the same time as the plus patch restored more and more maps and stuff.

 

As for TDM, I can't yet imagine mappers designing their maps up to single lights! I usually don't use water arrows at all, unless really forced by the map.

 

Or regarding the oil lamps, my impression was that mappers use them to fit the location, e. g. big mansions. I never had problems to sneak by them as such!

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As for TDM, I can't yet imagine mappers designing their maps up to single lights!

It's a stealth game with light-/shadow-based visibility. Light placement is among the most important aspects of the whole game.

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Some things I'm repeatedly thinking about...

 

- louder scream when you're dying

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As for TDM, I can't yet imagine mappers designing their maps up to single lights! I usually don't use water arrows at all, unless really forced by the map.

What on earth do you think mappers do, design the architecture then grab a handful of lights, close their eyes, scatter them and wherever they fall that's where the light goes ?

 

Bit like planting bulbs so they look natural ?

 

Way to piss all over the mappers efforts mate, job well done there

 

Light placement, brightness, volume that is illuminated, whether it can be extinguished and by what means, can it be relit, does it flicker & what pattern to the flicker, what colour is it all these things get considered when you light a map, if it's done well it can make a trivial section into something the player has to think about hopefully adding to the players enjoyment, after all they're playing a stealth game, taking their time & thinking round problems is usually part of the game, so I kind of hope they enjoy taking their time & thinking.

Or regarding the oil lamps, my impression was that mappers use them to fit the location, e. g. big mansions. I never had problems to sneak by them as such!

So there's really no need to build a switch to allow you to turn them off into the core mod then! glad thats settled.

 

I'm coming to the idea that you think light in TDM is just there to make it look pretty, and sound is just for atmosphere instead of being integral parts of the game

Edited by esme
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Yes, lighting is very important. The previous writers already commented the gameplay considerations, but that is not all.

 

Lighting also controls the visual appeal, atmosphere and mood of the location. It is also the main dramatical tool in the mapper's disposal.

 

Yes, each and every light is usually hand tuned so that it fits into the place it was given.

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Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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Light placement is among the most important aspects of the whole game.

Of course I know that, don't jump on me like that ; )! I was still mostly referring to oil lamps which right now are exactly like torches gameplay wise. I was doubting that mappers count all extinguishable lights including oil lamps and try to foresee how many water arrows they must give to the player so that certain areas would be more difficult, which they can't because some players like myself rarely use them. But maybe I am mistaken and you do calculations like this?

Edited by wesp5
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Of course I know that, don't jump on me like that ; )! I was still mostly referring to oil lamps which right now are exactly like torches gameplay wise.

 

 

You may be right that they are very similar gameplay wise (lights, extinguishabel, need water arrow to do so), but you also have to take into account, the realism, you like to point out so much. The light volume of an oil lamp is much smaller than a torch. So if you want to have a light that is not as bright as a torch, you will take an oil lamp. Also torches do not fit in every surrounding (just as electrical lights in some cases), so you might want to use a different light source, that works the same but fits better.

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The light volume of an oil lamp is much smaller than a torch. So if you want to have a light that is not as bright as a torch, you will take an oil lamp. Also torches do not fit in every surrounding (just as electrical lights in some cases), so you might want to use a different light source, that works the same but fits better.

Exactly. This is what I meant to say! My impression was that oil lamps are most often used because of their light and environment properties and not because they can't be snuffed out up close. When I wanted to test the fix of the other thread I actually needed to try several missions before I found some oil lamps to extinguish!

Edited by wesp5
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I want an option in the menu to be able to extinguish electric lights by smearing the glass with my own fecal matter, and if you lazy fuckers haven't implemented it by next week it's because you're all stubborn conservative assholes who can't be bothered to add any new features.

 

The light gem doesn't actually measure the visibility of the player in TDM. It measures prettiness.

 

Oh, so that's why I suck so badly at this game.

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I want an option in the menu to be able to extinguish electric lights by smearing the glass with my own fecal matter

Think of all the additional gameplay options! Laxatives, softeners, hardeners, all used to give the player plus or minus points on the Bristol Stool Chart, which in turn affects smearability. You're onto something.

Edited by Airship Ballet
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Think of all the additional gameplay options! Laxatives, softeners, hardeners, all used to give the player plus or minus points on the Bristol Stool Chart, which in turn affects smearability. You're onto something.

 

I await, with great anticipation, the day when some mapper goes and does all this stuff.

 

The sort of Malkavian Mod for TDM that breaks every convention in a bizarre way...

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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