Blackjacking. What the hell.

[nbohr1more]

One thing that needs to be factored here:

 

Hearing sensitivity. How high is it set in the difficulty settings?

 

If it's at the highest sensitivity, normal walking speed on normal surfaces will alert the guard well before you are in blackjack range.

Arguably, if this is escalating too quickly without any sign to the player that step 1 cause alert level x then step 2 caused alert level x+1 then

this would be a bug. I have noticed this type of immediate invincibility too but I thought it was a byproduct of the hearing sensitivity so I didn't

bother to investigate further.

[Springheel]

If the player is doing something to alert the AI, the AI will react with verbal and visual feedback (bark and turn around).

 

However, the original poster said this was happening even with unarmed AI, who can still be KO'd even if alert.

[VanishedOne]

Comparing what the OP says to the text of http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=The_Dark_Mod_Gameplay#BlackjackingI'm not sure whether s/he's been blackjacking unarmed AI or not. There's probably some ambiguity in 'civilian' versus 'guard', e.g. for atdm:ai_townsfolk_beggar_armed the "is_civilian" spawnarg defaults to "0", but as a matter of regular speech it seems normal to call a beggar a civilian.

[grayman]

We need a video to see the behavior, or at least a full description of the AI that's behaving badly. Short of that, the only response I could give would be to practice. Otherwise we don't have enough data to make a change to a very complex mechanic.

[Cynical]

 

This doesn't sound right at all...and if what you're describing is accurate, then I can't see it being user error. The system is not designed to be impossible, simply provide a little extra challenge so that you're not able to knock out an AI by tapping him on the shoulder or his toe, but it doesn't require pin point accuracy. Something else has to be going on.

 

Did you run an update or a fresh install of the latest build? I'm just wondering if an old file has accidentally been kept and is mucking things up. I haven't heard of anyone else experiencing these issues since the bug fixes.

 

Is this happening in every mission you try? Can you upload a video of this happening? I haven't looked at blackjacking since I corrected the issues causing problems way back when, but what you're describing is not how the system should be working at this point. If the AI are not alert and you hit them in the back of the head, all should be well. Also, if they're unhelmeted civilians, you can blackjack them from pretty much anywhere, the knockout cone is large.

 

The problem with standing too close was fixed as well, there should be no need to stand back further as people are suggesting. That's an old tip that is no longer necessary.

My TDM install was originally 2.02 and was updated to 2.03.

 

After finishing the mission where I couldn't even blackjack civilians by just saying "screw it" and sneaking around every patrol (the mission was TP1: Knighton Manor), it seems that it's *not* equally difficult in every mission. In TP2: Beleagured Fence, the only AI that I had any trouble blackjacking was the guy in the officer's lounge who's sitting down and wearing a helmet (worth noting, if you're too close when you BJ him, all it'll do is piss him off).

 

If you want to see an example of one of the civilians in TP1 that I couldn't KO, enter the scepter room from the side near the toilets. In the center of the scepter room, there's a food table, and there's a good shadow near the wall on the side you entered from. Sit in that shadow for a while, and eventually a civilian will come along and walk up to the food table, on your side, with his back turned. I could *not* get a KO to happen on him when he was in this position. At all.

 

 

 

2. AI don't become alert because you start swinging. They aren't aware of swinging blackjacks at all, until and unless you actually hit them.

I'm actually not certain this is correct. It seems like every time I try a BJ from too far away and only hit the air, the AI always says "what was that?"

[New Horizon]

I will have to investigate. I haven't checked mission updates lately, but maybe knighton required an update or has a file that is conflicting with something. Hard to say, I'll have to check it out. Does it say what version of knighton you have in your missions list?

[wesp5]

If it's at the highest sensitivity, normal walking speed on normal surfaces will alert the guard well before you are in blackjack range.

Arguably, if this is escalating too quickly without any sign to the player that step 1 cause alert level x then step 2 caused alert level x+1 then

this would be a bug.

My hearing sensitivity is default, I never changed it. A typical case would be I sneak up on a guard and then stand up to be high enough for blackjacking. The standing up is counted as last walking step or something, the guard says "huh" and is invincible immediately. I hit him over the head, which alerts him full: instant reload! Just make him vulnerable until he has his sword out or has completely turned! Just hearing something (alert level 1?) shouldn't make him invincible...

Edited September 7, 2015 by wesp5

[grayman]

I'm actually not certain this is correct. It seems like every time I try a BJ from too far away and only hit the air, the AI always says "what was that?"

 

The swinging blackjack makes no sound for the AI to hear. "What was that?" sounds like a response to the player's footstep. A failed KO (you hit him somewhere other than in the right spot) typically elicits a "You'll pay for that" or "Ouch" or something similar.

 

Again, a video of this happening would be nice.

[grayman]

My hearing sensitivity is default, I never changed it. A typical case would be I sneak up on a guard and then stand up to be high enough for blackjacking. The standing up is counted as last walking step or something, the guard says "huh" and is invincible immediately. I hit him over the head, which alerts him full: instant reload! Just make him vulnerable until he has his sword out or has completely turned! Just hearing something (alert level 1?) shouldn't make him invincible...

 

He shouldn't become "invincible immediately". The code's not written that way. Are you thinking he's invincible because you take another swing at him and can't seem to make the right connection? Or do you think you're making the right connection and he doesn't go down?

 

Please describe the AI. Is he wearing a helmet? What happens when you do this to a civilian (no weapons)?

 

Need video! There isn't much we can do w/o seeing exactly what's happening.

[Cynical]

I will have to investigate. I haven't checked mission updates lately, but maybe knighton required an update or has a file that is conflicting with something. Hard to say, I'll have to check it out. Does it say what version of knighton you have in your missions list?

It is pretty old, according to the version info in my mission list (Version 1.1, March 2011). I don't know if there's been any updates, but that's what the in-game downloader grabbed.

[Springheel]

I'm actually not certain this is correct. It seems like every time I try a BJ from too far away and only hit the air, the AI always says "what was that?"

 

 

Can't happen unless you hit something. Is there a low ceiling in the room? That is a common problem, where the arc of the player swinging the blackjack hits the ceiling and not the AI's head. They hear the impact of the blackjack on the ceiling and will likely comment.

 

In the video I linked above, you can see an example where the player swings twice from two far away without the AI reacting at all. If the AI was standing in place you could swing all day long and nothing would happen.

 

The standing up is counted as last walking step or something

 

 

Standing up does not make any noise.

 

Just hearing something (alert level 1?) shouldn't make him invincible...

 

 

It doesn't.

[wesp5]

Standing up does not make any noise.

Okay, then it must be the last step closing up to him. If alerting him does not make him invincible like I thought, I must have the same problem as the original poster, because it looks as if I hit him fully on the head and he doesn't go down. Now is it true that once you hit a guard somewhere else than the head he becomes invincible? If that is the case, maybe again this could be changed until they have their sword out. Sometimes I have similar problems with civilians, but most of them fall with the second or third hit .

[grayman]

Now is it true that once you hit a guard somewhere else than the head he becomes invincible?

 

Not always. It pisses him off and raises his alert level. Some guards might be pushed up to an alert level that now makes them invincible, but not all. A mapper can change the defaults, which is why we keep asking for a video, so we can see which guard in which map is giving you problems.

[Springheel]

If that is the case, maybe again this could be changed until they have their sword out

 

 

Generally this is what happens. I've seen plenty of LPs where someone fails a blackjack, the AI spins around and starts to draw their sword, and the player KO's them in the face and they go down.

[Airship Ballet]

http://youtu.be/tBmqQUdPUCc

[Cynical]

So, on a related note...

 

What the everliving FUCK are you supposed to do about Haunts in this game?!?!?!

 

I've literally just spend an hour and a half trying to deal with one Haunt. It's impossible. A backstab to the head and then another hit to the head while he's turning isn't enough to bring him down, and then he just parries every single swing of mine 100% perfectly. Or sometimes he'll just swing straight through my swing, which is a win for him because his hits do a billion damage, and mine apparently don't even scratch him.

[demagogue]

FTR, some reports might be a matter of perception and memory too. Things are moving in real time, and misses really stand out, and older versions get conflated in. Unless someone does rigorous testing themselves, these reports might be their perception.

 

Edit. Re Haunts. Only way I've dealt with an alert one is the round robin fighting style. Head to head can be done, just takes focus.

[VanishedOne]

They have 180 hit points (compared to 100 for a generic guard and 120 for an elite guard) and 'undeadbone' has a 0.1 damage multiplier for sword strikes.

[New Horizon]

For undead, there is always holy water arrows...providing the map author has provided some holy water.

[wesp5]

What the everliving FUCK are you supposed to do about Haunts in this game?!?!?!

I think it was once suggested to use holy water on the blackjack or the sword against undead, but it was never taken into consideration...

[Springheel]

Holy water arrows, fire arrows and mines are all effective against revenants. The sword can work but it doesn't do a lot of damage, and revenants wear armour (hitting plate armour does NO damage). If you hit them in the head a few times they'll go down.

 

Toe to toe combat is supposed to be difficult, and revenants are one of the toughest opponents in the game. It's usually better to try and avoid them.

[RPGista]

As with both blackjacking and sword fighting, training is your friend.

Edited September 8, 2015 by RPGista

[RPGista]

I think springheel is sneaking behind me, or Im sneaking on him, second time I get ninja'ed in two minutes.

[OrbWeaver]

We should make a nod to D&D by having the blackjack (which does bludgeoning damage) bypass the revenant's damage reduction.

[Cynical]

They have 180 hit points (compared to 100 for a generic guard and 120 for an elite guard) and 'undeadbone' has a 0.1 damage multiplier for sword strikes.

Huh... why was this done?

 

Back in the classic Theif games, Haunts were actually more fragile than typical hammer guards. It gave them a unique set of strenghts and weaknesses -- fast and aggressive, but eminently backstabable (with no reason not to kill them -- in fact, in the one mission in Thief 1 that really had them as a "feature" enemy, killing them was mandatory), and not really that tough to kill in straight-forward combat if you could get one on their own. In TDM, it feels like the Haunts have been stripped of what made them unique, and are just "guards you can't blackjack".

 

(The same is actually true of the zombies to an extent. In the old games, they were very easy to outrun and had very low general awareness, but took special resources to "permanently" kill, could see you in the dark at close ranges, and couldn't be blackjacked. In TDM, they're just guards that walk slow and can't be disabled without holy water, mines, or fire arrows.)