Can TDM missions be commercialized?

[MirceaKitsune]

Nowadays I have a Patreon creator page, on which I take donations for both art and software projects. This will include sub-games I create on various game engines, as well as using freely licensed media from other sources. For example, RPG games I'll be making in the OHRRPGCE engine (a FOSS alternative to RPG Maker), or games based on MineTest (a FOSS engine for making MineCraft like games). Although I haven't made any real plans to create content for TDM that I'd charge for on Patreon, the thought did occur to me earlier today. After all, TDM is theoretically an engine for creating single-player games, and making your own interactive worlds and stories!

 

But I'm uncertain whether this is truly okay to do. TDM's assets are licensed CC-BY-SA-NC, meaning "not to be used for commercial purposes". Now I wouldn't be distributing and commercializing any TDM assets in my pack, only the map files I alone create plus free assets from other places... people would have to install TDM on their own then download my pk4 to their "darkmod/fms" folder. But although I'm not commercializing the asset files, I am commercializing something meant to use them. This CC license doesn't make it clear whether commercial use includes both direct and indirect usage.

 

Now from a legal standpoint, I'm fairly certain no one cared if you sold a map intended for TDM... it's just a text file generated by DarkRadiant that you can do whatever you want with! It's not even illegal to create a torrent file that points to copyrighted material, only to download said copyright material... which is a good analogy to this. But I also wouldn't want to do something that offended the developers, or made me a troll who does bad things to other people for money. Clarifying this might also help other Patreon users around here, who could create TDM missions and earn some money in the process... I imagine such could be helpful to the project as well!

 

So what's your opinion: Is making money off a TDM mission you create okay, as long as the game's assets are of course not distributed? Or can that go against TDM's license or principles?

[Bikerdude]

In short no, because we use creative commons lic. for all our content. And if I caugfht some ahole commercial dev using stuff I have slaved over they would get a slap around the head and a swift kick up the arse.

[Sotha]

I dunno about any legal standpoints, but monetization things have been discussed before.

 

The conclusion typically has been this:

 

if the coders, other mappers, texture artists, modelers and everyone do all this work for free, would it be okay for someone else to make money out of their work? Of course not! They would feel ripped off. Why should they continue working for free if someone else made money with their efforts. This would be the end of the dark mod.

[nbohr1more]

We include assets from 3rd parties which have a "non-commercial clause" in their use case.

 

Anyone attempting to commercialize would need to replace most of the art assets. (Textures, models, sounds, animations, etc)

The code is GPLv3 so you can use that in a commercial project as I can tell.

[MirceaKitsune]

Interesting. Again this is a bit of a strange situation, since we're basically talking about commercializing a simple text file (DarkRadiant map) which does nothing but point to the non-commercial assets (eg: specify that texture X is used on brush Y). An expert could just open up a text editor and create such a file by hand, then put it on Pastebin and link it. So it's more of an indirect thing and about where everyone draws the line I imagine... from what I understand so far though, the general idea is that even this might be too much.

Edited September 29, 2015 by MirceaKitsune

[SteveL]

I don't think there's any legal or techie problem with what you proposed. You wouldn't even be selling the file you had created if I understand it right. Patreon is more about taking donations to encourage or enable people to do more work.

 

Any talk of money on an open-source project tends to bring people out in hives. The general feeling is that commercialization ruins projects.

[grayman]

Simple answer: no.

[Sotha]

An example of a destructive cycle:

*Mapper A starts collecting donations for his grand artistic mapping efforts.

*If Mapper A can do it Mapper B should, too! Mapper B starts collecting donations.

*This pisses off Coder A, Coder B and Art Boss, who do a lot of work, which is very important, but much less visible to the basic player base than map output. They rightfully want their share of the profit. But how to share it? They start collecting donations or quit.

*Donations come in unequally. Why work without salary? Why do this effort while master Mapper A, who makes really popular maps, gets more than me? Tensions rise. More people quit.

*Without updates and improvements, the project dies. In the end, the money gained was low compared to the damage it had caused.

[MirceaKitsune]

I don't think there's any legal or techie problem with what you proposed. You wouldn't even be selling the file you had created if I understand it right. Patreon is more about taking donations to encourage or enable people to do more work.

 

Any talk of money on an open-source project tends to bring people out in hives. The general feeling is that commercialization ruins projects.

 

Typically I have the same bad feelings toward FOSS software being used commercially. In this case I'm not fully sure... since it's not about how TDM itself is used, but how independent creations for it are. Looking at it this way, Windows cannot be used commercially either (except by Microsoft), yet programs intended exclusively to be installed on Windows can.

 

But like I said, my question isn't just legal, since again I doubt that a map simply referencing some textures by name can count. I also wanted to know how people feel about this idea. If the feeling is so negative even toward this, it is likely an idea I will scratch off... I care most about the project and community, and have enough ideas for Patreon anyway.

[grayman]

Scratch it off and we will soldier on.

[MirceaKitsune]

An example of a destructive cycle:

*Mapper A starts collecting donations for his grand artistic mapping efforts.

*If Mapper A can do it Mapper B should, too! Mapper B starts collecting donations.

*This pisses off Coder A, Coder B and Art Boss, who do a lot of work, which is very important, but much less visible to the basic player base than map output. They rightfully want their share of the profit. But how to share it? They start collecting donations or quit.

*Donations come in unequally. Why work without salary? Why do this effort while master Mapper A, who makes really popular maps, gets more than me? Tensions rise. More people quit.

*Without updates and improvements, the project dies. In the end, the money gained was low compared to the damage it had caused.

 

Right... I can see what has the potential to go wrong there. This actually makes me worry a little... since what I'm proposing is most likely legal, but unlike me other mission makers might not be considerate of how the team feels. Eventually, whether weeks or years from now, someone will likely start a Patreon for creating TDM missions... and then what happens? It means anyone on the internet has the ability to destroy TDM.

Edited September 29, 2015 by MirceaKitsune

[grayman]

Eventually, whether weeks or years from now, someone will likely start a Patreon for creating TDM missions... and then what happens? It means anyone on the internet has the ability to destroy TDM.

 

You only need to worry about yourself.

[MirceaKitsune]

 

You only need to worry about yourself.

 

Like I said, I won't do it as long as the feeling remains so negative about it here. But I really love TDM, and it's worrying to think that anyone could do something tomorrow that would get the developers to quit the project. Hell... some internet troll might do it just to start discord. Great projects have fallen apart for lesser reasons, so this is a vivid doomsday scenario

[Sotha]

The internet has the ability to destroy many things... But it has the ability to create as well: without it we (TDM I mean) would not be here. So, it can give us things, but it can take it away as well.

 

In the end, it boils down to the people. The team is vocal about its opinion in the matter, but it cannot control others. If someone would start collecting donations, it all depends on how many people jumps into the snowball. Probably a single newbie (troll?) mapper is not going to get so significant donations that would cause the snowball to roll.

 

There are more scary things to worry about, I think.

[grayman]

... this is a vivid doomsday scenario

 

The only vivid doomsday scenario I worry about is my cancer returning and cutting short my plans to contribute to TDM for as long as I can.

 

Life is too short.

 

Go make your mission.

 

Use the forum to help you.

 

Then come back and share it with hundreds of players, who I'm sure will enjoy it.

[Destined]

Another question is: would you donate to someone, who is the only person in a community, where every other map (and many of them should have asimilar or higher quality) is free? I think, it is honourable, if oyu want to reward a person for making a good map, but you can do that in other ways than paying them. Personally, I think, the best way to repay the mappers and coders here in this community is not money, but work you put into the mod yourself. Be that assets or maps you create or any contribution you can make.

 

A similar discussion came up recently, when Steam announced, that they want to introduce the possibility to ask for money (or donation) for mods you create. This was removed a week (or was it two?) later. And I think there is areason for that...

Edited September 29, 2015 by Destined

[MirceaKitsune]

If the fear is that one person taking money for mission creation will cause everyone else to do so, and no one else doing free missions will be left, I doubt that would ever happen. There will always be people in both sides... some will never stop creating free missions as well.

 

Blender is a good analogy in many ways: It's a FOSS tool, used both commercially and non-commercially by many. There are two market places for each side, both very active: Blendswap for freely licensed content, CG Cookie Market for commercial content. They both get along fine however, while the Blender team doesn't usually know or care what other people create with / for the software.

 

Also, if the TDM developers take to heart what others create for the engine, there might be another problem aboard: What happens if eventually, someone creates a really offensive mission? Like I dunno... maybe someone who knows a thing or two about DarkRadiant gets drunk one night and makes a replica of 9/11, then it goes viral on Youtube (worst case scenario). It doesn't sound like everyone is ready to say "it's not our business what someone else did" rather than "OMG what has this person done with our game, we are ruined and it's all over". Maybe I'm just over-thinking things here though...

[grayman]

What happens if eventually, someone creates a really offensive mission? Like I dunno... maybe someone who knows a thing or two about DarkRadiant gets drunk one night and makes a replica of 9/11, then it goes viral on Youtube (worst case scenario). It doesn't sound like everyone is ready to say "it's not our business what someone else did" rather than "OMG what has this person done with our game, we are ruined and it's all over". Maybe I'm just over-thinking things here though...

 

Is this one of those threads that is going to go on for pages, full of

 

"But what if this happened?"

 

"Okay, but what if this happened?"

 

" OMG, have you thought that this might happen?"

 

"And aren't you worried about that?"

 

To answer the OP: No.

 

Everyone get back to work.

[MirceaKitsune]

It turned a bit into that toward the end... OP tends to be a panicky person Also I'm sorry to hear you had something as bad as cancer... I hope you are okay and have defeated the thing completely!

[grayman]

I hope you are okay and have defeated the thing completely!

 

Thank you. Cancer-free for 7 years, but once you've had it, it's constantly lurking, ready to bite your head off.

[Airship Ballet]

oh god that patreon

[Springheel]

Maybe I'm just over-thinking things here though...

 

 

Yep.

[Melan]

Also, if the TDM developers take to heart what others create for the engine, there might be another problem aboard: What happens if eventually, someone creates a really offensive mission? Like I dunno... maybe someone who knows a thing or two about DarkRadiant gets drunk one night and makes a replica of 9/11, then it goes viral on Youtube (worst case scenario). It doesn't sound like everyone is ready to say "it's not our business what someone else did" rather than "OMG what has this person done with our game, we are ruined and it's all over". Maybe I'm just over-thinking things here though...

It would give TDM immense publicity, and get us several new fans. It worked for Dungeons & Dragons, black metal and Grand Theft Auto, it would work for us.

 

Not an invitation to make a 9/11 mission, though, because this site sure wouldn't host it.

 

(There is actually a Thief 2 mission called Osama Bites the Dust. It is exactly as you would expect.)

[Arcturus]

If your maps are good enough people will be willing to pay for them. I have no problem with that. It will not stop other people from releasing them for free.

[Sir Taffsalot]

Nowadays I have a Patreon creator page, on which I take donations for both art and software projects. This will include sub-games I create on various game engines, as well as using freely licensed media from other sources. For example, RPG games I'll be making in the OHRRPGCE engine (a FOSS alternative to RPG Maker), or games based on MineTest (a FOSS engine for making MineCraft like games). Although I haven't made any real plans to create content for TDM that I'd charge for on Patreon, the thought did occur to me earlier today. After all, TDM is theoretically an engine for creating single-player games, and making your own interactive worlds and stories!

 

But I'm uncertain whether this is truly okay to do. TDM's assets are licensed CC-BY-SA-NC, meaning "not to be used for commercial purposes". Now I wouldn't be distributing and commercializing any TDM assets in my pack, only the map files I alone create plus free assets from other places... people would have to install TDM on their own then download my pk4 to their "darkmod/fms" folder. But although I'm not commercializing the asset files, I am commercializing something meant to use them. This CC license doesn't make it clear whether commercial use includes both direct and indirect usage.

 

Now from a legal standpoint, I'm fairly certain no one cared if you sold a map intended for TDM... it's just a text file generated by DarkRadiant that you can do whatever you want with! It's not even illegal to create a torrent file that points to copyrighted material, only to download said copyright material... which is a good analogy to this. But I also wouldn't want to do something that offended the developers, or made me a troll who does bad things to other people for money. Clarifying this might also help other Patreon users around here, who could create TDM missions and earn some money in the process... I imagine such could be helpful to the project as well!

 

So what's your opinion: Is making money off a TDM mission you create okay, as long as the game's assets are of course not distributed? Or can that go against TDM's license or principles?

 

Is that you AngelWolf???