Mortal Combot!

[oDDity]

When talking about the Thief world where several of us don't necessarily want to deviate from what we've accepted as "the thief world," I can brush your arguments off as dandruff, as well. Logic doesn't win over arguments regarding Thief when we're talking about a 'feeling' we get from Thief. We've accepted thief for what it is. Deviating too far from that recipe -- especially when talking about introducing gun carrying NCPs -- just doesn't feel right to me. So what if we can't explain it "logically."

You're a sheep if you're going to accept what a few devs at LGS handed you, warts 'n all, without questioning it.

Hero worship has never been a strong point of mine. I respect the LGS devs in a professional capacity, and they really made some great games, BUT, they were not perfect, they made some bad decisions as well as good ones, and I do NOT accept what they gave us as a promised land which cannot be altered.

[Macsen]

We haven't accepted what LGS has given us, and strive to improve upon their world. But just because they weren't right on many issues doesn't mean they weren't right on this one.

 

You accuse us of arguing for something because it was LGS, while you're doing something that's equally preposterous - arguing that something is right just because LGS didn't do it.

[oDDity]

I gave many reasons for muskets and none of them was 'becasue LGS didn't do it, it makes it right'

[Macsen]

I gave many reasons for muskets and none of them was 'becasue LGS didn't do it, it makes it right'

Not in those words, but you do 'despise traditon and dogma' and complain about LGS at every turn. Put the two together and... tadaa! Its pretty obvious that one reason you want it here is 'cause it wasn't in Thief. Which isn't a bad thing in itself, we should strive for originality; but many of us here just don't like guns and think they're crap. So meh.

[Darkness_Falls]

I know there were some issues with the LGS titles. But we've already talked about several things that we want to improve upon or change. We're not sheep entirely if we're advancing, enhancing and changing things.

[oDDity]

Not in those words, but you do 'despise traditon and dogma' and complain about LGS at every turn. Put the two together and... tadaa! Its pretty obvious that one reason you want it here is 'cause it wasn't in Thief. Which isn't a bad thing in itself, we should strive for originality; but many of us here just don't like guns and think they're crap. So meh.

Its my intent to keep the core gameplay of thief, but make our own game on top of it. I'm not sure what everyone else is doing. For legal reasons alone, that is the onyl way to go.

 

edit - and by 'core gameplay' I mean a thieving stealth experience in a medieval/victorian world - everything after that is fair game.

Edited April 21, 2005 by oDDity

[Springheel]

Since it's not a huge or urgent thing, I don't see why people are so hung up on the pros and cons. Some people think it would be good; they can later on (after release, or when they've run out of more important things to do), add it in as an optional weapon for guards, even the player, and go from there

 

This is turning into a slightly bigger problem. You are correct in what you've said, but the same could be true for virtually any feature imaginable. I want dragons, Odd wants guns, somebody else wants disguises, maybe Ish wants realistic unarmed martial arts, etc.

 

Since, after the official release, people can add pretty much whatever they want to the mod without forcing other people to use it, there is no good argument for not including *anything*. Discussions will quickly (as this one has) break down into "I and people like me won't like it" vs "I and people who think like me will like it".

 

To avoid these kinds of problems, I think we need to restrict our discussions to what should be included in the official release--at least until we get to that point. Then, the remaining team-members can go nuts coming up with whatever add-ons or modifications they want.

[Fingernail]

But I think what we HAVE decided is that this is to contentious an feature to be included in the official release. That was my point.

 

We could have all agreed to implement it in the official release; so there's no reason not to raise something because it MIGHT not make the grade.

[Springheel]

We haven't really been using that as an option, however. We need to have a few different ways of talking about features.

 

1. Love the idea, it's going in the official release by default.

 

2. Interesting idea, it's going in the official release as an option.

 

3. The idea has limited appeal, but someone can always do it after the official release if they want.

 

Since #3 can't be stopped anyway (anyone can add anything they want to the mod once it's released), I assumed when people said, "I don't think it should be in the mod," that's what they meant.

[Fingernail]

Semantics, semantics, semantics.

 

Source of 99% of arguments and approximately 97% of made up statistics.

 

In fact, why don't we just use those numbers when responding to potential features?

 

1 = want it in the OFFICIAL release as default.

 

2 = optional in OFFICIAL release

 

3 = can be added later as unoffical optional addon.

[Ishtvan]

IMO we just need to vote on these things sooner, that's the only way we can decide if it should be in the official release and it would save a lot of arguing. Maybe we can have some sort of standard where people propose an idea, everyone should do their best to limit themselves to one post listing arguments for or against, then vote.

 

Also, we could do as we have been doing, where if it is being suggested for the official release, but could not be fit in before the next milestone, discussion is postponed.

Edited April 21, 2005 by Ishtvan

[Darkness_Falls]

Allowing only 1 response, voting sooner and closing the topic before discussions like this is something I'm not a big fan of.

 

We've all seen posts mis-read or misinterpreted and the point of the post lost. Without allowing more responses, I just fear people not being allowed to present and discuss their case very well.

 

It may now be time for a vote for this one, but to force a vote too early on in discussions is bad. People don't get to speak their mind enough; readers don't get to hear both sides enough. I was gone for a week; had we decided to vote last weekend, my voice wouldn't be heard or counted. Not that anyone here cares about my voice/vote, but it's just one of those things. I think anyone who feels passionate about something would feel short-changed.

[Domarius]

Tell me about it. You never got to respond to my female guards idea because the thread was locked instantly without even allowing a discussion of wether it could be for the first milestone or not.

 

No need to lock threads, just enforce a little whip cracking in the way of edited threads when people dont' follow procedure.

 

I'm gonna make a new thread about a proposed procedure.

Edited April 22, 2005 by Domarius

[god_is_my_goldfish]

And wow, this thread got waaaay off topic.

 

sigh... I miss the good old days, when my concept threads didn't turn into feature discussion threads.

[Domarius]

So yes, anyway, taking things back. I don't want the mouth to open upon seeing you. I think the face should stay as you've drawn it. It'd be cool, cause they'd be scarey to look at even when sitting there in the dark, de-activated. It would be very ominous...

 

Not related to the art - the noise they make when they see you should be something really wierd and original. Not a scream, even a mechanical one, that's too predictable and feel's cliched. Like how they replaced the laughing of the Haunts in T3 with a screech. Scarey, but not original. The "...hoooooooooohhhhh..." drawing in of breath from T2 was much scarier, because it was still scarey, but also wierd. Humans are naturally afraid of what they don't understand. And it gives a unique feeling and character to the monster.

[god_is_my_goldfish]

Agreed, i have plans to do full-on concept art of thus, redone, and the cherub-flame bot in PS within the next few weeks, though i may have to wait till this semester is over before i can get them done.

Edited April 22, 2005 by god_is_my_goldfish