Has Anyone thought of a Thief Gold Remake In TDM?

[kamilavalamp]

I am not a modder (the only modding tool I've ever been able to use is the map editor for Star-Craft Brood War) and I imagine this would be a tremendous undertaking but I'd like to know if anyone has thought about or tried to do a total remake of Thief gold in TDM? I know myself and a lot of other fans would LOVE It and since Thief gold has been given out for free on gog and steam I wouldn't think there would be any complaints about property rights. Do you guys think this could ever happen?

[Bikerdude]

Do you guys think this could ever happen?

Sorry to be blunt but nope, for various reasons - first among which IP infringement.

[kamilavalamp]

Sorry to be blunt but nope, for various reasons - first among which IP infringement.

 

Man, That's too bad. I would have loved to see it. You would think that when they gave the game out for free they gave up the property rights.

Edited May 17, 2016 by kamilavalamp

[nbohr1more]

Unless EM officially signs-off on the use of Thief IP in fan projects, the only legal way to do this would

be to add code to TDM to check for a valid TG install and procedurally generate the levels based on map

data from TG maps. It's possible but nobody with the skillset has expressed interest. The closest we've

seen is a Ultima Underworld conversion project:

 

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/15322-ultima-underworld-to-dark-mod-map-conversion-sample/

[kamilavalamp]

Unless EM officially signs-off on the use of Thief IP in fan projects, the only legal way to do this would

be to add code to TDM to check for a valid TG install and procedurally generate the levels based on map

data from TG maps. It's possible but nobody with the skillset has expressed interest. The closest we've

seen is a Ultima Underworld conversion project:

 

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/15322-ultima-underworld-to-dark-mod-map-conversion-sample/

 

That's how they finally managed to make Morroblivion Right? And how they're making SkyWind?

[nbohr1more]

 

Unless EM officially signs-off on the use of Thief IP in fan projects, the only legal way to do this would

be to add code to TDM to check for a valid TG install and procedurally generate the levels based on map

data from TG maps. It's possible but nobody with the skillset has expressed interest. The closest we've

seen is a Ultima Underworld conversion project:

 

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/15322-ultima-underworld-to-dark-mod-map-conversion-sample/

 

That's how they finally managed to make Morroblivion Right? And how they're making SkyWind?

 

 

Those games are owned by the same company so mods for one that recreate the other still generate sales for their products.

That said, Bethesda\Zenimax have been more pro-modder than other companies and haven't issued takedown requests.

Eidos\Square have been more zealous about their IP rights.

[DevAnj]

Legal issues and hard work aside, I don't see the point to making such a remake anyway. It's just going to be Thief Gold but with better graphics and Dark Mod mechanics. Surely something more interesting can be made if you're willing to dedicate so much work, like the Crucible of Omens campaign for instance.

[freyk]

Unless EM officially signs-off on the use of Thief IP in fan projects, the only legal way to do this would

be to add code to TDM to check for a valid TG install and procedurally generate the levels based on map

data from TG maps. It's possible but nobody with the skillset has expressed interest.

If we can find a mapper who's willing to create a mission for TDM (using the tdm-map, -models, -object-sounds, etc).

 

 

After taking i peek into the tdp-gold files, i can say that is easy to create a application that checks the original tdp-gold files and extract the texture & sounds files and pack it to pk4.

The player has to run this application, after he downloaded the mission.

Edited May 18, 2016 by freyk

[nbohr1more]

If we can find a mapper who's willing to create a mission for TDM (using the tdm-map, -models, -object-sounds, etc).

 

 

After taking i peek into the tdp-gold files, i can say that is easy to create a application that checks the original tdp-gold files and extract the texture & sounds files and pack it to pk4.

The player has to run this application, after he downloaded the mission.

 

To be clear, part of the code project would be to scan the TG map geometry and use it as a template in a procedural content generator. A simplistic approach

would be to simply convert to Doom 3 map format on execution\install and leave the geometry alone but most folks would want something like Black Mesa

where the maps were modernized so you would need to:

 

1) Import TG maps and convert to Doom 3 format

2) Create new TDM style maps with approximately the same dimensions

3) Feed both maps into some sort of DIFF tool that creates equations that will procedurally regenerate step two when fed item 1

 

A modular approach would reduce the complexity here. The procedural tool could just arrange geometry modules based on the position data

collected from step 3.

 

Tels would probably be all over this thread and the possibilities of what SEED could do here.

[Bikerdude]

Could somebody not simply branch of TDM and create TDM/TMA project..?

[kamilavalamp]

 

To be clear, part of the code project would be to scan the TG map geometry and use it as a template in a procedural content generator. A simplistic approach

would be to simply convert to Doom 3 map format on execution\install and leave the geometry alone but most folks would want something like Black Mesa

where the maps were modernized so you would need to:

 

1) Import TG maps and convert to Doom 3 format

2) Create new TDM style maps with approximately the same dimensions

3) Feed both maps into some sort of DIFF tool that creates equations that will procedurally regenerate step two when fed item 1

 

A modular approach would reduce the complexity here. The procedural tool could just arrange geometry modules based on the position data

collected from step 3.

 

Tels would probably be all over this thread and the possibilities of what SEED could do here.

 

A Thief Gold\TMA To TDM Mission Converter would be awesome! Just feed it the Original Missions or Fan missions you want and it could spit out TDM Versions. Give it a checker to make sure you own the original games and all is well. It could have it's own library of high res approximate textures so it wouldn't be using the original copyrighted ones. But scripts... Wouldn't original and custom scripts have to be manually redone?

Edited May 18, 2016 by kamilavalamp

[nbohr1more]

Could somebody not simply branch of TDM and create TDM/TMA project..?

 

Any branch project would have the same IP problems without some utility that dynamically builds the map content from

the source maps.

 

If you distribute the maps directly the you are distributing their IP.

 

To be legally in-the-clear you need to only distribute "Your Changes"

and the only way to do that is to have some sort of DIFF tool that can dynamically rebuild the mission using "Your changes" + "Original Mission".

 

Companies shouldn't be allowed to take down hobbyist created content like maps based on original Thief maps but that's the world we

live in unfortunately.

[Bikerdude]

Oh well. ncie idea while it lasted.

[kamilavalamp]

 

Any branch project would have the same IP problems without some utility that dynamically builds the map content from

the source maps.

 

If you distribute the maps directly the you are distributing their IP.

 

To be legally in-the-clear you need to only distribute "Your Changes"

and the only way to do that is to have some sort of DIFF tool that can dynamically rebuild the mission using "Your changes" + "Original Mission".

 

 

So a mission converter utility could still work and be legal. Each user would just have to feed the missions into it himself and let automation do the rest.

 

 

 

To be clear, part of the code project would be to scan the TG map geometry and use it as a template in a procedural content generator. A simplistic approach

would be to simply convert to Doom 3 map format on execution\install and leave the geometry alone but most folks would want something like Black Mesa

where the maps were modernized so you would need to:

 

1) Import TG maps and convert to Doom 3 format

2) Create new TDM style maps with approximately the same dimensions

3) Feed both maps into some sort of DIFF tool that creates equations that will procedurally regenerate step two when fed item 1

 

A modular approach would reduce the complexity here. The procedural tool could just arrange geometry modules based on the position data

collected from step 3.

 

Tels would probably be all over this thread and the possibilities of what SEED could do here.

 

Just feed it the Original Missions or Fan missions you want and it could spit out TDM Versions. Give it a checker to make sure you own the original games and give it it's own library of high res replacement textures to use so it wouldn't be using anyone's IP. But scripts... original and custom scripts for the missions would have to be manually redone I think.

 

Imagine Being able to play all your favorite Thief OM's and FM's in TDM with just a few clicks... That would be something.

 

I really wish I had the skills to make a utility like this.

Edited May 18, 2016 by kamilavalamp

[kamilavalamp]

Can we change the name of this thread to "Ideas for Thief Gold\TMA to TDM Mission Convertor Utility" ?

Edited May 18, 2016 by kamilavalamp

[Taquito]

It would be more plausible to just concentrate in one mission in Thief as inspiration to translate it into the TDM wolrd. Not just Thief but there are some pretty good Hitman, Deus Ex, Splinter Cell and many more missions that could be used as inspiration to transform the mission into the Dark Mod Universe in terms of the layout of the map and dynamics. I think a few mission creators here are doing it already.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Taquito

[freyk]

Found another map exporter: https://sourceforge.net/p/blenderbitsbobs/wiki/Dark%20Engine%20model%20importer-exporter/

[freyk]

..So a mission converter utility could still work and be legal.

Today I started to work on the Converter, to get more developing-experience.

When i'm sure its legal, I will put the binary and sourcecode on my personal website and github, in the coming days.

 

..Give it a checker to make sure you own the original games..

At the moment my converter can validate TDP-Gold gamefiles and convert them (CRF-files) to PK4-files.

Could someone PM me MD5-hashes of Thief 1 (and/or Gold) unmodified files, to help me?

 

..and give it it's own library of high res replacement textures to use so it wouldn't be using anyone's IP.

It doesn't convert the content inside these files (like the textures and sound) yet.

But its easy to implement this feature, if someone want to use this application.

Edited May 21, 2016 by freyk

[kamilavalamp]

Today I started to work on the Converter, to get more developing-experience.

When i'm sure its legal, I will put the binary and sourcecode on my personal website and github, in the coming days.

 

At the moment my converter can validate TDP-Gold gamefiles and convert them (CRF-files) to PK4-files.

Could someone PM me MD5-hashes of Thief 1 (and/or Gold) unmodified files, to help me?

 

It doesn't convert the content inside these files (like the textures and sound) yet.

But its easy to implement this feature, if someone want to use this application.

 

Thanks for giving it a go. I'd like to do something to help if I can. I have the gog versions of Thief Gold and TMA, I'll see if I can find their MD5 hashes and I'll post them here for you.

[freyk]

No, please PM it to me, for security reasons.

Edited May 22, 2016 by freyk

[V-Man339]

Everyone here is paranoid of lawyers, and rightfully so, due entirely to how fragile things become when you involve actual intellectual property and turn what is legally freeware into a fan creation.

It's much more comfortable overall to not exist on the whim of a bored lawyer who feels like he needs to validate his paycheck.

Edited May 22, 2016 by V-Man339

[demagogue]

To be fair, allowing IP to fall into the public domain would kill its value and a lawyer that allowed it would be rightfully sanctioned, possibly disbarred, and liable for the loss (in the millions) for breaching their fiduciary duty. There's some flexibility what they can do without that happening, but that's one line they can't cross, and when there's some uncertainty, and the cost is so high, you'll see them being conservative.

 

The way to help open things up is to either work with their rules or stay off their radar. Of course in our case, SqEnix already follows us, so we don't want to purposefully antagonize them, not if there's a viable alternative.

 

Edit. I'll take your more general point. If we stick to our own IP it's not even an issue and the sky's the limit. I'd even say an 'inspired by' map is better, even aside from the IP issue, because it's something new and surprising but still tugs at nostalgia. It's also worth pointing out that with New Dark, you can really boost the resolution and poly count so even TDP looks more up to date in its own engine. (Of course they avoid the IP issue by being underground, and some lawyer still let it get sanctioned by integrating it in the GOG version IIRC.)

[wesp5]

Besides that I think just converting maps and other assets is far from actually making missions work in TDM, something similar was tried for Vampire: The Masqerade - Bloodlines: It was called Project Vaulderie and already as it was converting the old Source engine maps to the free Unity engine it was stopped dead in it's tracks by a cease and desist letter from White Wolf! So the paranoi here is pretty well justified.

Edited May 22, 2016 by wesp5

[nbohr1more]

Did project Vaulderie ship actual map files? That's one distinction here. This utility would ship code only, not a single protected asset. The other distinction is that Source encrypts their assets so breaking the encryption to allow 3rd Party code to scan them is a DMCA violation. The only real legal issues with a utility like this one are that the US courty system has a history of misunderstanding legal use-case scenarios and EM/Square could simply litigate on dubious grounds or (worse) set some new draconian bar for GPL code in reverse engineering projects as a precedent.

[wesp5]

Did project Vaulderie ship actual map files?

No, they had just started developing and were stopped anyway.