Jump to content
The Dark Mod Forums

Recommended Posts

disclaimer: Please do not take this as hatred towards TDM, I love all the work you've done with it, and these are the only issues I find worthy of criticism.

 

Lockpicks

Honestly, between Thief 1 & 2, Deadly Shadows, Thief (2014), and TDM, it seems like everyone has their own ideas at how lockpicking mechanisms should be handled. After all these years, I have to say that Thief 1 & 2 have the best mechanics for lockpicks. It's simple. It allows for suspense if AI patrol routes are timed right. It's fluid. I never felt like I was playing a mini-game with the first two Thief games. Every style since then has left me aggravated and feeling like the entire game has to halt just for me to try and get this mini-game out of the way. It's a chore, not fun. I'd say TDM has the most infuriating lockpick mechanism simply because at face value, it appears like the original Thief style, but is far from it. I would imagine an option could be put in the settings that reverted lockpicks to the Thief 1 & 2 style, but what do I know.

 

- edit: I have tried "auto & trainer" options, neither of which return to the T1&2 style of lockpicking, as others have suggested

 

Loading Times

I'm genuinely curious as to the long load times TDM has. I have an i7, 32GB RAM, SSD, 4GB video card, and I still have loading times longer than DOOM (2016) running everything on ultra. Doom 3 loads within seconds for me, so I'm really shocked TDM takes as long as it does. Although once in game, performance is solid. No stuttering, no drops in FPS for the most part.

Moving Bodies
Sounds stupid, but I miss the ol' "throw the body over the shoulder" style from the original Thief games. The ragdoll dragging seems really out of place. Not a huge issue, but it bugs me every time I try to hide a body.

Restarting To Load Missions
I understand this is probably a limitation to how the game works, but I would be very happy if it didn't have to restart every time you want to play a new mission.

Borderless Window Mode
Above all else, this is something I absolutely adore in games. Again, I'm assuming it's a limitation of the game engine itself, but if it was added, it would be immensely appreciated.

 

That's all I can think of right now, keep up the good work.

Edited by avohec
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Fortunately at least 3 of the 5 you can fix right now.

(Read the wiki article on Gameplay to see if there are other fixes you might be interested in: http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=The_Dark_Mod_Gameplay)

 

Lockpicks

Go to the options menu under Difficulty->Lockpicking and change it to "Auto". Viola, lockpicks are now Thief-style.

Moving Bodies

While you have a body selected (in drag mode), hit the "use" button (for me it's bound to "enter"), and the body will be shouldered.

Boderless Window Mode

Someone was working on fixing Alt-Tab in fullscreen mode to go to the desktop. That at least accomplishes the main advantage of Window Mode. I can't recall if it got into 2.04. I personally use Dextop, which lets me switch to a second desktop from in-game, do some stuff, then switch back over to the game-running desktop.

 

The Restarts issue is maybe too small an issue to get attention.

The Reload Time is an issue that annoys everybody. It's actually been improved over time. Hopefully it'll be improved even more. It still gets attention.

  • Like 2

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Uhm.....that reminds me we need a discussion about ALL the existing lockpick and similar (not-so)minigames. ALL to be listed and analyzed one time for all! :D

Edited by lowenz
  • Like 1

Task is not so much to see what no one has yet seen but to think what nobody has yet thought about that which everybody see. - E.S.

Link to post
Share on other sites

There was a huge discussion about this while TDM was being developed. Some wanted a more visual way to do it (me), some wanted the audio way. There were other alternatives also discussed, but the majority seemed to want the current system. Years later we have it I have to say I think it's the best way too. I always thought the thief way was

just a place holder for auto picking.

  • Like 1

I have an eclectic YouTube channel making videos on a variety of games. Come and have look here:

https://www.youtube.com/c/NeonsStyleHD

 

Dark Mod Missions: Briarwood Manor - available here or in game

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/18980-fan-mission-briarwood-manor-by-neonsstyle-first-mission-6082017-update-16/

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

The lockpicking system is regularly pointed out in reviews as one of TDM's strengths:

 

Rock, Paper, Shotgun: "Rather than the original Thief slowly alternating between two lockpicks and waiting or later Stealth games looking-for-hot-points-to-jiggle-free, it instead plays its own sound-sample which loops. There’s a gap at the end. By pressing at that exact moment, you take out that tumbler. In other words, they’ve inserted a skill element but kept (or even extended) the tension as you try and get a lock open before you’re found. Neatly, since it’s sound based, there’s also room for puzzles based around noisy areas. In other words, an intelligent development which adds to Thief’s core experience."

 

PC Gamer: “Unlike other tributes to older games, the mod's makers also weren't precious about reinventing Thief's systems to make them better. Every developer with an interest in creating professional pilferers should look to The Dark Mod's lockpicking system and, well, steal it. It's not tied to a minigame, but it's also not a canned animation you have to endure. Instead, you wait while your master thief does the job, and use sound cues to identify and mark the end of the sequence. The result makes you feel like part of the process, but also keeps you detached enough to listen out for approaching guards. It's a perfect balance of interaction and situational awareness, creating tension and rewarding advanced planning.”

 

etc.

 

But as Dem pointed out, the Auto setting will make it work like the "hold button and wait" T1/2 method.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

Your comment on the shouldering bodies has come up many a time in the past.

People don't play the training mission, they think since they can beat T1/2/deadly shadows that there's no training needed, and miss all this stuff.

 

I've seen people complain about this "missing feature" after playing the mod for years. It blows my mind.

Everything in the mod is represented in the training mission afaik.

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Nothing has been said about the loading times, and as the other two questions here were easily answered by the regular crowd, how far has the idea been tested to add onscreen loading tips during the map loading time which could explain exactly some things like these? Or have them added to the key config menu, like "use can do the following". Not everyone can be expected to play the tutorial, especially as it is one small undistinct mission among dozends of others and not something the game starts you with like within a city hub with mission blackboards...

Edited by wesp5
Link to post
Share on other sites

TDM's lockpicking mechanic is the best I've seen in any stealth game so far. Takes the simplicity of Thief 1 and 2's and adds a new layer with possible failure, making the thing more stressful if enemies are around. It doesn't feel like a minigame at all to me. One of the few good things introduced in Thi4f and I wish was in TDM is that your lockpicks make noise if you fail, which could potentially alert guards who are very close by.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Nothing has been said about the loading times, and as the other two questions here were easily answered by the regular crowd, how far has the idea been tested to add onscreen loading tips during the map loading time which could explain exactly some things like these? Or have them added to the key config menu, like "use can do the following". Not everyone can be expected to play the tutorial, especially as it is one small undistinct mission among dozends of others and not something the game starts you with like within a city hub with mission blackboards...

 

On Screen loading tips have been done, map authors can add them if they wish. Look at Springheel's maps, he's added some.

And when you first download the mod there's 2 missions; Tears of St Lucia and Training Mission. It's not like players aren't seeing the mission there, they're just ignoring it.

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Nothing has been said about the loading times, and as the other two questions here were easily answered by the regular crowd, how far has the idea been tested to add onscreen loading tips during the map loading time which could explain exactly some things like these? Or have them added to the key config menu, like "use can do the following". Not everyone can be expected to play the tutorial, especially as it is one small undistinct mission among dozends of others and not something the game starts you with like within a city hub with mission blackboards...

 

Loading times have been improved by around 30-40% by my own tests, over the last few releases.

The big problem, especially compared to Doom 3, is that D3's maps are tiny.

TDM's maps are sometimes 10x or more the size of D3 maps, and have entity counts in the thousands compared to hundreds for the original doom 3 maps. They are not comparable.

Loading times were just increased again with this release (albeit not by much). Apparently particles were causing longer loading times.

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

On Screen loading tips have been done, map authors can add them if they wish. Look at Springheel's maps, he's added some.

And when you first download the mod there's 2 missions; Tears of St Lucia and Training Mission. It's not like players aren't seeing the mission there, they're just ignoring it.

Hm, I can't remember, but isn't it possible to download all the other missions as well before you start those two? In which case they may get lost between all the others. Also great that loading tips are already possible, but I was asking about adding some of the more obscure tips for all missions!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Alt Tab isn't fixed which is a real pain

 

Yeh would at least like to be able to minimise it. For level design, it'd be really nice to check alt tab and check things.

I have an eclectic YouTube channel making videos on a variety of games. Come and have look here:

https://www.youtube.com/c/NeonsStyleHD

 

Dark Mod Missions: Briarwood Manor - available here or in game

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/18980-fan-mission-briarwood-manor-by-neonsstyle-first-mission-6082017-update-16/

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

For level design, it'd be really nice to check alt tab and check things.

You can still put the game into windowed mode and right-click -> change properties on your taskbar at the bottom to auto hide itself. What will remain is a border at the top and some thin ones around the other edges but for level design it's workable.

 

The downside is that having TDM open slows down DR somewhat, how much depending on your setup.

Edited by Dragofer
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

It uses the same sounds as default picking. You just keep the button pressed and after 2 cycles it unlocks or goes to the next pick stage automatically. That's how it's similar.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

Link to post
Share on other sites

FWIW, i find the lockpicking system in the Elder Scrolls (since Skyrim) and Fallout games superior to all Thief games and TDM. But, i guess that's a matter of taste.

 

Regarding the moving of bodies, i agree. There should at least be a button to directly shoulder the bodies. The dragging is cool though, and should stay, because it allows you to move bodies in the shadow, if, say, an arm or a leg is still not hidden, as far as i've experienced it. It's just that sometimes you have to act really fast after KO'ing a guard, and then you have to press 2 buttons very quickly, and even have to be near enough, which can be quite a hassle.

 

While we're at it, some downloads in the in-game downloader are freaking slow btw, while others are really fast. Not sure why that is, maybe different servers?

Edited by chakkman
Link to post
Share on other sites

What about the idea of using the "use" button to use-frob directly on a highlighted AI to directly shoulder it?

 

The main problem is that probably next to no one would learn about, much less use, that feature. And it would mismatch 'use's normal function to act on inventory items, so it wouldn't be consistent or logical. And any other key would make even less sense. It's an idea, but I don't think it'll fly in the end, compared to the 2-button route

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

Link to post
Share on other sites
It's just that sometimes you have to act really fast after KO'ing a guard,

 

 

It's already possible to shoulder a body fast enough to do it before it even hits the ground (AH has a video about it somewhere), which is pretty unrealistic.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

It's already possible to shoulder a body fast enough to do it before it even hits the ground (AH has a video about it somewhere), which is pretty unrealistic.

 

Actually it's very realistic. The KOed Ai seem to react to getting KOed just like boxers do. You don't fall immediately to the ground you kind of stand there for a second.

If you wanted you could quickly scope someone up before they crumpled.

 

  • Like 1

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

What about the idea of using the "use" button to use-frob directly on a highlighted AI to directly shoulder it?

 

 

 

Would be great to have that.

 

@ Springheel: Why have the possibility to frob-shoulder an AI before it hits the ground anyway? That's basically what's unrealistic. You won't be able to hit someone on the head, holster the blackjack, and catch the body, all before it hits the ground. I know, there's already implemented that metal armor creates a noise, when an AI with that hits the ground, so catching the body before it hits the ground is a part of the gameplay now. But, as said, it is unrealistic. At best, you will be able to hold on to the clothing, when hitting with one hand. But even that is a bit optimistic.

 

I don't know if one of you ever tried to catch a body. A friend of mine once collapsed, and i tried to catch him up, when he was falling to the side. It was absolutely impossible... much too heavy.

Edited by chakkman
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Would be great to have that.

 

@ Springheel: Why have the possibility to frob-shoulder an AI before it hits the ground anyway? That's basically what's unrealistic. You won't be able to hit someone on the head, holster the blackjack, and catch the body, all before it hits the ground. I know, there's already implemented that metal armor creates a noise, when an AI with that hits the ground, so catching the body before it hits the ground is a part of the gameplay now. But, as said, it is unrealistic. At best, you will be able to hold on to the clothing, when hitting with one hand. But even that is a bit optimistic.

 

I don't know if one of you ever tried to catch a body. A friend of mine once collapsed, and i tried to catch him up, when he was falling to the side. It was absolutely impossible... much too heavy.

 

Shouldering a body before it hits the ground was never part of the design. It was to force players to time KOes better, and not abuse the AI, especially ones in conversation while walking.

Before you could knock out one and the other would continue on, then you could knock out the other one.

 

To be fair though, I was KOing + Immediate shouldering before the update anyways. It just turned out to be very useful in this case.

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...