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1 hour ago, chakkman said:

Bethesda is not only Elder Scrolls.

Well, I did write post-Morrowind Bethesda RPGs.

1 hour ago, chakkman said:

Apart from that, I think both Oblivion and Skyrim are much better in terms of combat than Morrowind ist. Morrowind is basically hack hack hack, and the character skill and luck logic of the game decides whether you hit or not, and how powerful the hit is.

No question that Morrowind's combat is terrible, but at the same time, it isn't a very high bar to clear. I think Oblivion clears it only just, simply by removing the tabletop dice rolls. Otherwise it's still godawful. TDM, a game where the combat is more like an afterthought, has better combat than Oblivion, for example.

1 hour ago, chakkman said:

I also never really could get into the text based dialogues in Morrowind. And, I also think it has a much more generic world than Skyrim.

That's fair, voiced dialogue brings a lot to the table, even if it restricts the writing. Even bad voice-acting can have a certain charm.

1 hour ago, chakkman said:

I don't mean this offensive, but, I always find it a bit funny when there are people doing videos about how Morrowind is so much better, and now the games got dumbed down, and stuff. While I agree that there ARE games these days which are quite dumbed down, and, I also find that some of the game mechanics have been dumbed down in Skyrim (I really think that no game should have automatic healing, for example), I can only refer to games mag's scores about the games. 

If I'm reading this correctly, and you mean how Skyrim got high-praise from critics despite people complaining about it, personally I wouldn't put almost any weight to the press ratings as far as evaluating a game goes. It somehow doesn't surprise me that a game in a beloved-series hyped to high-heavens gets critical acclaim. Dumbing it down seems like it would make it more likely, not less, as it's even more accessible.

1 hour ago, chakkman said:

Anyway, the real hit series from Bethesda for me is Fallout. Those games offered one of the most fun experiences I ever had in games. Simply because the setting is nearly perfect for me. I also like Elder Scrolls, but, between those two series, I prefer the Fallout setting. Bethesda used to do pretty generic game worlds and characters (Morrowind, Oblivion, even Fallout 3 suffered a bit from that, especially the never ending subway tunnels), but, at the latest from Fallout 3, they really improved a lot on that.

Even with Fallout, the same consensus seems to apply. New Vegas, not developed by Bethesda, is often described as the superior RPG, whereas 3 and 4 are seen as more fun to explore.

I don't really care for Fallout's flavor of post-apocalypse, so I haven't had any inclination to play any of the games. I've watched some videos though, Fallout 76 seemed like a real riot. :awesome:

1 hour ago, chakkman said:

If you want to play an Elder Scrolls game, play Skyrim Special Edition. I wouldn't really play anything else now.

I played Oblivion for dumb reasons anyway. There was a let's play of it I watched back in the day, that didn't get very far, but still somehow got me to give it a shot. Thought I could play it as an alternative Thief game; that was a terrible idea in hindsight, as there is nothing to steal. I did finish the game, all the factions and Shivering Isles, but late-game combat, dungeons and fetch quests were beyond mind-numbing.

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21 minutes ago, roygato said:

Well, I did write post-Morrowind Bethesda RPGs.

Fallout is also a RPG.

 

Quote

No question that Morrowind's combat is terrible, but at the same time, it isn't a very high bar to clear. I think Oblivion clears it only just, simply by removing the tabletop dice rolls. Otherwise it's still godawful. TDM, a game where the combat is more like an afterthought, has better combat than Oblivion, for example.

How? I think the combat in Oblivion and Skyrim is quite decent. The slashing works, the blocking works... no complaints in that regard here. Actually, it's pretty nice if you ask me.

Edited by chakkman
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32 minutes ago, roygato said:

If I'm reading this correctly, and you mean how Skyrim got high-praise from critics despite people complaining about it, personally I wouldn't put almost any weight to the press ratings as far as evaluating a game goes. It somehow doesn't surprise me that a game in a beloved-series hyped to high-heavens gets critical acclaim. Dumbing it down seems like it would make it more likely, not less, as it's even more accessible.

No, actually, the most videos with complaints in that regard seemed to come from die-hard Morrowind fans, who thought about every aspect of the games was dumbed down with either Oblivion or Skyrim. I can't really confirm that. I think those people don't judge the latter very fair. Or, they focus on elements they consider the most important, and totally negelct other things. As I mentioned, the game world in Morrowind is very generic compared to Skyrim, the characters are wooden, and character less. There's no voice acting for the most part, and the setting is pretty alien as well. Bethesda really learned a lot in that regard with the later games.

It kind of reminds me of how die hard players of the two original Thief's judge about Thief Deadly Shadows, the 2014 Thief, or, even, TDM. There'll always be some people who need to count every penny, and see if everything is exactly the same as their icon. I can even understand that to some degree, and, with some things, I'm similar. I can't stand anything Star Trek after the Nemesis movie, for example. But, it also can make you a bit religious, if you don't take care.

What I'm saying is, is, if the "specialist press" hands out rave reviews, and if everyone and his brother plays and enjoys the games, they can't be that bad (well... stuff like Far Cry or Assassins Creed sucks big time, but, let's not tkae that as an example, as we're talking about RPG's with at least a bit of demand here).

And, I also say that, even though I tried it a couple of times, I can't play something like Morrowind now anymore. I could hardly play it, when I still played Gothic 1 and 2. It may have some good sides, but, there's a lot of bad sides as well. Thus I don't quite get that it's such a precious item for some. Or why some still prefer it to something like Skyrim, which IMO is superior in every aspect really.

Can't argue about taste, I guess.

Edited by chakkman
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tHe ShIvErInG iSlEs! Easily some of the best content ever for TES: IV Oblivion.

Edited by Anderson
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"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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If it's at all confusing, when I wrote post-Morrowind Bethesda RPGs, I literally meant that. Not post-Morrowind Elder Scrolls. :awesome:

5 minutes ago, chakkman said:

How? I think the combat in Oblivion and Skyrim is quite decent. The slashing works, the blocking works... no complaints in that regard here.

It lacks any and all impact for one thing. Slashing anything in Oblivion feels like swatting at them with a foam toy. I played Nier Automata a year ago, a game with combat that I generally described as "mash left click as fast as possible". Now that's oversimplified, as you can dodge like a madman, but even then, it just feels good when you hit things.

Other than that, there's hardly any skill involved in Oblivion; you pretty much just hope they die before you do. I tend to agree with the retrospective I linked; since you can't dodge, not with any reliability anyway, you just take damage constantly, and the game appears to be balanced around that. From the little I've seen of Skyrim, the feedback seems to be better, but the mechanics not so much. While you can't dodge in TDM either, at least blocking is much more involved, as you have to react to the opponent's swing direction.

Of course, whether Elder Scrolls needs high skill-expression combat is debatable (one friend told me he wouldn't mind if these games had no combat at all), but it certainly could make it more fun.

29 minutes ago, chakkman said:

No, actually, the most videos with complaints in that regard seemed to come from die-hard Morrowind fans, who thought about every aspect of the games was dumbed down with either Oblivion or Skyrim. I can't really confirm that. I think those people don't judge the latter very fair. Or, they focus on elements they consider the most important, and totally negelct other things. As I mentioned, the game world in Morrowind is very generic compared to Skyrim, the characters are wooden, and character less. There's no voice acting for the most part, and the setting is pretty alien as well. Bethesda really learned a lot in that regard with the later games.

Die-hard Morrowind fans, as far as my experiences go, seem to lament the dumbing down of the writing, both quests and the world itself. Perhaps characters too. As far the Oblivion retrospective goes, and how he compares the two games, Oblivion is much more like an idyllic utopia, whereas Morrowind is a more somber and gritty, and if you will, realistic representation of the world, and its good and bad sides.

1 hour ago, chakkman said:

What I'm saying is, is, if the "specialist press" hands out rave reviews, and if everyone and his brother plays and enjoys the games, they can't be that bad (well... stuff like Far Cry or Assassins Creed sucks big time, but, let's not tkae that as an example, as we're talking about RPG's with at least a bit of demand here).

Well, you say not to take them as an example, but big games for big franchises from big studios are ripe for this kind of treatment from the press. I wouldn't take the "everybody seems to like it, can't be that bad" as an argument, if the thing just happens to appeal to the lowest common denominator (not trying to offend or suggest anything, you probably get what I mean). To use music as an example, just because everyone seems to like some popular artist, they can, in fact, make truly awful music, even if it's produced and presented with top-dollar. It depends entirely what you're after.

1 hour ago, chakkman said:

And, I also say that, even though I tried it a couple of times, I can't play something like Morrowind now anymore. I could hardly play it, when I still played Gothic 1 and 2. It may have some good sides, but, there's a lot of bad sides as well. Thus I don't quite get that it's such a precious item for some. Or why some still prefer it to something like Skyrim, which IMO is superior in every aspect really.

I'm sure nostalgia plays into it. I do find it interesting how you appear to dislike Morrowind for the reasons its fans love it, that is to say, story and the world. The archaic mechanics I can definitely see as a turn-off, such as limited fast travel ability or the combat.

1 hour ago, chakkman said:

Can't argue about taste, I guess.

Indeed. Just thought it would be interesting to hear from someone who enjoys the newer Bethesda games, as they tend to get a lot of flak, despite their popularity.

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9 minutes ago, roygato said:

If it's at all confusing, when I wrote post-Morrowind Bethesda RPGs, I literally meant that. Not post-Morrowind Elder Scrolls. :awesome:

Don't worry, it was just me being thick. ;)

Quote

Just thought it would be interesting to hear from someone who enjoys the newer Bethesda games, as they tend to get a lot of flak, despite their popularity.

It might appear like that from certain videos on Youtube. But, the way I experienced it, there are loads of people who enjoy their newer games. Even Fallout 76. 

It's just that there's a lot of Negative Nelly's these days. ;)

Edited by chakkman
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On 3/17/2021 at 10:54 AM, chakkman said:

And the part where you kill the brain of the Many short before the game ends is pretty hard too.

I played my first run up to that point and never got past that point. I think I had a bad build and had it set to easy somewhere at the start. Killing the Many with a bad build is also difficult on easy. There was a sudden huge leap in difficulty there not seen anywhere else in the game as such. Also, I absolutely curse boss fights and I think they are completely unnecessary if you design your game to be challenging overall. It was a great experience though, I was totally hooked. At the time my internet was down for 2 weeks and I decided to try SS2. I was not missing internet during that period..

About the graphics: You can pimp it to the point that it becomes better looking than some Quake 3 engine based games (for example JK2).

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Morrowind is an unforgettable experience for anyone who played it around when it came out. Even with crappy combat, exploits, silt striders, etc. the alien fantasy atmosphere of the game holds up well. Some of the features that seemed great at the time, like custom spells, are not as ground-breaking as claimed. Those are better for goofing off (shooting everybody at once with a 50 ft radius fireball or casting levitation on others). Levitating 100 pts endlessly in the game is fun (no exploit required, just 5 gold at the temple!) but a little annoying due to the loading zones, I guess that's being fixed by the likes of OpenMW though.

Oblivion is in a weird pit compared to Morrowind and Skyrim. It made some big improvements over Morrowind, but dumbed down a lot of aspects for consoles and noobs. Radiant AI made the world feel more lively than the "NPCs standing around while somber music plays" vibe of Morrowind, but it was also very rudimentary. Just search Oblivion "NPC", "dialogue", or "conversation" on YouTube and witness the many memes inspired by dumb Oblivion AI conversations. Facial animations were bad. Physics was an addition, but it was buggy and made it more difficult to collect weapons and armor that went flying off. The scenery was bland compared to the variety of environments in Morrowind. Closing Oblivion Gates gets repetitive, as are most dungeons. The level-scaling enemy system got ridiculous (check out these bandits with full Daedric and Glass armor), and inefficient play would get you killed due to it (although the difficulty slider compensates). Stealth was a lot better than Morrowind, maybe overpowered though.

Skyrim refined a lot of what Oblivion introduced, and brought back some of the Morrowind charm. Environments are surprisingly varied and beautiful, not just a big pile of snow which was my expectation for Nord Land. They even brought back some of the enemies, like the Dwarven robots, but added lots of physics-based traps to go with it. The game is a great improvement over Morrowind, but with more competence than Oblivion.

The best change of Skyrim? The death of Efficient Leveling. Basically, in Morrowind or Oblivion, to have an optimal character you have to level up correctly in order to get +5/+5/+5 or +5/+5/+1 (Luck) attributes on each level up, with Endurance being one of the attributes so you can get that to 100 ASAP and get the full 10 health per level up. This might mean you need to go around getting lots of gold (easier for experienced players and with Tribunal expansion) just to pay for as many as 30 training sessions per level up. Except in Oblivion you can only train 5 times per level. Leveling up one of your major skills out of order can throw everything off, but you are forced to get 10 level ups across your limited number of major skills. Once you're aware of what Efficient Leveling is, you hate it but feel compelled to do it. That's completely gone in Skyrim, which has skill trees (easy dopamine hits), re-specs, and the possibility of getting every skill (I think the DLC/updates make that easier).

Dragons can get annoying in Skyrim, particularly when they fly away and come back repeatedly before you can finish them off. Instakill moves by Dragons and other enemies are also annoying, and would seem to make Melee character impossible, but maybe that's just me sucking badly. I usually go for Stealth/Archery. The unskippable story portion at the beginning is annoying (similar to Oblivion, but in Morrowind you only have a small amount of that).

I left plenty out but that's just what I can think of first. I am glad that TES VI is taking a long time to develop and in line after Starfield, because nobody wants to see another Fallout 76 or Cyberpunk 2077 fiasco, and I would like to see TES VI slamming 16-32 cores and doing things that are just shocking (in reality, it will be targeting something like an 8-core 3800X, similar to the PS5/XBX). At some point in the future, we will probably see games that combine the "infinite" procedurally generated nature of Daggerfall with supremely advanced versions of Radiant AI, voice synthesis, etc. to create unfathomable custom experiences. But at that point, people might also be neurally inserted into games Matrix-style and wasting away.

Oh, and make no mistake, Fallout 76 was an incredible blow to Bethesda's reputation, even if it has been improved since release. It's not just negative nelly's, and you can watch the Internet Historian or other videos about it if you want to see a full accounting of the many problems with it. Cyberpunk has probably eclipsed that due to the sheer hype and deception, but former Bethesda fans are wary of the Todd now. Don't play TES VI (or most if not all games) at release, wait it out.

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For me each game had different aspects that stood out positively. What I liked most about Morrowind (which most likely annoyed many players) was, that you had skill requirements in order to proceed in a guild. I miss it, because now a brute, who can do nothing but stupidly bash on any enemy can become the head of the mages' guild. This position should be reserved for someone, who can actually cast magic. Or that you could not be head of the thieves' as well as the fighters' guild. Yes, it meant that you had to replay the game, if you wanted to see everything, but then I had enough time. Nowaday, I would most likely not replay it... Apart from that playing Morrowind has been too long ago for me, so many praises I had then simply do not apply anymore. At the time Morrowind was one of the most beautiful and graphically demanding games on the market (I neve could play it on maximum setting; couldn't even turn on water effects). This was later the same in Oblivion with lush natural pictures that stood in stark contrast to the desolate landscape of Morrowind.

One of the most cherished memories in Oblivion for me was the Dark Brotherhood quest line, because (at least in the beginning) the assassinations were really creative and interesting. Unfortunately, this turned to shit around half way (although this was actually explained in game) and Skyrim never compared in this regard. And the lockpicking system in oblivion was also one of the best, in my opinion, simply due to the fact that it depcited best what actually happens while you pick a lock. The Shivering Isles were fun to play. Especially, the ravings of Sheogorath were hilarious (this, in turn, would have been nothing without the voice acting). Also the contrast between Mania and Dementia was interesting, but I don't know if it aged well. One reason, I would not play it again: I fear that I could destroy a lot of fond memories that way.

Even though these all are aspects that I liked more in the old games, I currently only play Skyrim (if any of these games), simply because it has the most modern engine and is the most refined game of the series (also just due to it being the latest one). There are always some quality of life improvements, even if some aspects may become too simplified. E.g. I enjoyed the min/max-ing of character stats and having an eye on which skills I have to improve in order to get suitable stat increases, but I also know that many people found this rather annoying. But as chakkman said: you can't argue about taste.

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14 minutes ago, Destined said:

E.g. I enjoyed the min/max-ing of character stats and having an eye on which skills I have to improve in order to get suitable stat increases, but I also know that many people found this rather annoying. But as chakkman said: you can't argue about taste.

I respec your opinion, but if you are doing true Efficient Leveling, or even semi-efficient leveling, you are limiting what your character can do, at least at the beginning of the game. For example, putting Athletics as a major skill and then accidentally leveling it at the wrong time by running too much. Or getting hit in combat a bunch of times and getting that accidental increase in an Armor skill. Having initial major skill values too high also limits level ups.

 

It seems that the non-cheat fix for this is to go to Jail a lot to decrease skill values or "increase" Security/Sneak at 100 for more level ups. Although any Morrowind/Oblivion character should still try to hit 100 Endurance ASAP.

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mostly played the older versions myself then i fell headlong into the blizzard diablo games continuing through world of warcraft where i ended up as our guilds main damage dealer (as a shaman Oo) then things went south when my buddy got banned for life for using processhacker (no hacking in that tool it is an advanced process and  task manager nothing more) by blizzard and now none of us is ever going to touch a blizzard game ever again. But i guess a company who uses hacktools themselves to root out botters are not to keen on people spying on what there warden mechanics do behind the scenes, though even if that where possible to some extent with it the only reason we use it is because the default task manager of windows is a bit lacking.

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10 hours ago, jaxa said:

I respec your opinion, but if you are doing true Efficient Leveling, or even semi-efficient leveling, you are limiting what your character can do, at least at the beginning of the game. For example, putting Athletics as a major skill and then accidentally leveling it at the wrong time by running too much. Or getting hit in combat a bunch of times and getting that accidental increase in an Armor skill. Having initial major skill values too high also limits level ups.

 

It seems that the non-cheat fix for this is to go to Jail a lot to decrease skill values or "increase" Security/Sneak at 100 for more level ups. Although any Morrowind/Oblivion character should still try to hit 100 Endurance ASAP.

I agree that it made a lot of things more difficult. I also remember jumping a lot simply to increase Athletics. So, I get, why people found it annoying, but it also brought more variety to different play styles. Although, admittedly, I would most likely enjoy it as much today, in part, because I don't have the time to replay a game, anymore. Same with the "certain ways are blocked in one playthrough". I wanted to replay The Witcher 2 and try the oterh way in the second chapter, but never got to it...

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15 hours ago, jaxa said:

Oh, and make no mistake, Fallout 76 was an incredible blow to Bethesda's reputation, even if it has been improved since release. It's not just negative nelly's, and you can watch the Internet Historian or other videos about it if you want to see a full accounting of the many problems with it. Cyberpunk has probably eclipsed that due to the sheer hype and deception, but former Bethesda fans are wary of the Todd now. Don't play TES VI (or most if not all games) at release, wait it out.

To be fair, though, I'm sure that there won't be a single game these days where there won't be a massive shit storm on release. People are simply like that these days. Spoiled to the max.

Didn't understand the slagging Cyberpunk received either, and, I was one of the people who bought short after release on Xbox One S, and returned the game after seeing what the graphics look like. I understand that it's a difficult thing to release for the last gen generation, due to processing power restraints. It probably would have been better to just release for the next gen. But, guess what would have happened then? Yep, massive shit storm from the people who weren't so lucky to get one of the next gen consoles, in the 5 minutes they were available so far.

So, shit storm is imminent, in any case.

The funny thing about it is that none of those loud speakers has the slightest clue what a work game development ist.

Edited by chakkman
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Some outrage is warranted. In the case of Cyberpunk, it was insanely hyped, the devs were heavily crunched, but it was broken and essentially unfinished upon release. In this case, the outrage seemed more geared towards the management, rather than the devs.

Some outrage is just stupid, like what you're describing with the hypothetical next gen release timeline. The developer has no power over that; they do have power over the state their game releases in. Cyberpunk was already delayed more than once from what I recall; may as well have kept at it for a while longer.

I was one of the people who was hyped ever since the initial reveal trailer in 2014 or whenever it came out, but I didn't buy the game, after reading about its sorry initial state. Probably gonna wait a year or two.

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I agree that it was completely overhyped. But, you know... I file that in the same drawer as the negative hype after the release. Hype, hype, hype. Positive or negative. No wonder that it's all shit when it is released, when it was made much bigger than it is beforehand. There's no way it can not disappoint then.

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I don't necessarily disagree, you're probably digging your own grave when you announce a game so far away from release and the hypetrain builds up like this. It didn't help its cause that Witcher 3 was a runaway success and Cyberpunk was supposed to not only live up to it, but presumably surpass it.

That said, Valve somehow released a new Half-Life game after all this time, and it appears to be very well received. Really wish I had VR gear so I could try it. :awesome:

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Missing assets and bugs were one thing, but they also overpromised on features and systems (see Crowbcat video). IIRC it was in last month or two before launch, so they knew it won't make it to the final game. I don't mind seeing what's up in two years or so.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Fantastic report on loot box gambling came out this month. I'm amazed how deep the roots go. Well structured analysis. No wonder we missed the red flags and got to the present controversies. Studies like this help me rebuild faith in humanity.

https://www.begambleaware.org/sites/default/files/2021-03/Gaming_and_Gambling_Report_Final.pdf

"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

badge?user=andarson

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11 hours ago, revelator said:

half life alyx can be played with standard mouse and keyboard now due to https://github.com/r57zone/Half-Life-Alyx-novr

but it looses some immersion due to lacking the vr plays more detailed handling also it is hell to set up :)

still if youre just in it for the story it is quite possible.

Valve must have been high up in the ivory tower when they didn't add simple controls to play Half Life Alyx instead of VR gimmicks.

Edited by Anderson
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"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

badge?user=andarson

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guess someone will newer figure out the boat is about to sink VR has mostly been a massive flop and i can understand why... it is (a LOT) more expensive than a decent lcd monitor and most headsets still feel like you have a box over your head, not to mention the hilarious things that sometimes happen when you do infact forget that you are wearing this riduculous box and try to rest against a virtual fence only to land on your ass xD

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