A Suggestion..

[tommo]

Hey all, long time thief fan and loved the dark mod from its very birth. Im Dram's brother.

 

I saw the new bow cos my brother showed me, and i didnt like the way the fire arrows drop, the way all the arrows move very fast and the slanted angle and lack of aimer on the bow.

 

Im sure you guys already argued this to death on the dev forums but i dont see much taken on board from the community here. The new bow and arrows are not much like in thief, i know its based on the real speeds of a medieval recurve short bow, but i for one really prefer that the bow had an aimer, that it drew back slowly, that the fire arrows flew straight and slow, and the way all the arrows flew slower then in real life - they feel like bullets now!

 

a lot of people whined when thief 3 did this - i didnt like what thief 3 did either, but a lot did - it would be nice if we could get some public polls on this, and maybe on other major design decisions - these things are important to me and others who want to play the dark mod.

 

Oh btw i really really love how its going - the music is great and the atmosphere is already feeling very thief like - i love the sound prop! i think most games underrate the importance of this!

 

cheers

--Tommo

[FishFace]

<archer>

 

I personally would prefer a fast moving arrow - perhaps it makes the bow too powerful for some people, but it's completely unrealistic to have it as slow as in T1/2. At Agincourt, the bows could be lethal at something like 400 metres. Even a shortbow would be respectable at 70 odd.

As for sights... There has to be something to aim with - modern longbow archers use their knuckles and reference points on the skyline, usually, but there's nothing to say that medieval archers didn't attach point bits to the edge of the bow.

I don't really like the T1/2/DS sights - the first two look plastic, the second one looks retarded, and is impossible to use, really. Also, slanty bows = nonono - they make the shot very unreliable. This is Garret who will always hit the spot he's aiming at... Unlikely to happen if you hold the bow to the side

You probably know that modern bows have a little stick protruding to the side, ending in a circle. Within the circle there can be a variety of 'reticles' including crosshairs, stick-and-a-dot, small peepholes, and nothing. However, our sights also move up and down for different distances. It'd therefore be unfeasible to have such a sight on Garrett's bow, because it would be too anachronistc to have a moveable sight (plus, it's pretty annoying to set!) I think my personal favourite candidate would be a stick coming out, then a vertical stick with protruding marker points.

 

</archer>

 

But that's just me as a poncy archer-boy... Feel free to slap in the name of gameplay

Edited April 23, 2005 by FishFace

[gleeful]

hm, hard to judge that from description alone - i suggest you just let me download your current build so i can test it thoroughly.

 

the important thing would be that the bows behaviour can easily be modified via the .def and .script files, as i suppose it will be.

 

kind regards

gleeful

[Springheel]

it would be nice if we could get some public polls on this, and maybe on other major design decisions - these things are important to me and others who want to play the dark mod.

 

Seeing as you aren't contributing to the hard work of making the mod, and won't be paying to use it when it's done (since it's free), why do you feel you should have any creative control over it?

[Dram]

whoa! cool spring, he meant that if we want suggestions it would help if public were asked.

[oDDity]

THere doesn't have to be anything to aim with. THe centre of the screen is the target area, which is indicated by the tip of the drawn arrow.

As for long shots where you have to take arc into condiseration, you'll learn to estimate through experience, and it'll become a game skill - which is exactly how it should be.

This isn't real archery, there's no wind or other factors to consider, just simple distance.

As for whether the bow is slanted or not, I don't care either way, it's entirely asthetic as far as the game is concerned.

[Springheel]

he meant that if we want suggestions it would help if public were asked.

 

When did we ever give the indication we wanted suggestions about the bow?

 

The public forums are here for the express purpose of giving the public a chance to talk and give their opinions on things. But the idea that we should be polling the public before making "major design decisions" is ridiculous.

 

The aiming guard was removed because it was modern and unnecessary. Bow zoom was kept because it simulates greater concentration as you aim (although I'll be turning it off). The bow is slanted because it is easier to knock and fire that way in real life, and it obscures less of the area you are aiming at on screen in the game.

 

The speed of the arrow, time of the draw, etc, are all customizable and have not been tweaked to their final values yet.

[oDDity]

Seeing as you aren't contributing to the hard work of making the mod, and won't be paying to use it when it's done (since it's free), why do you feel you should have any creative control over it?

I think the future players of the game should be able to give their input. (as long as they agree with my point of view - if they don't, then fuck them)

I'm more inclined to give the public what I think they should have, rather than want they want. I don't trust them to make decisons for themselves, they've become too docile and apathetic to the generic production line of worthless brainwashing games that have endless shelf space devoted to them, paid for by huge amounts of corporate money.

That isn't a good thing for the mind.

Only lazy developers give the public want they want, because it's the easy way to make a quick buck and become artificially popular.

[Macsen]

It's impossible to give anything as general as the public what they think they want anyway, since they all think they want different things. It'd be rather big headed of us to claim that we're giving the public what they need, too. We can only try to make the best possible game. If other people like it, and I'm sure a fair few will, then bonus.

[FishFace]

Obviously you shouldn't just give in to everything that's thrown at you, otherwise anything anyone did would be a great big pile of monkey-droppings. (Perhaps literally)

However, public opinion is a valuable thing to take into consideration, because it can prevent a project from becoming metaphorically inbred. A project should appeal to its developers, but what good is a _toolkit_ when it appeals _only_ to the developers, who are more likely to work on it than with it?

 

Anyways, back to the sights issues. It's not a good idea to use the tip of the arrow unless the arrow is not at an angle to your line of sight, horizontally. At least give us knuckles, oDD! The knuckles!

As for slantiness, it doesn't make one squat of difference to the ease of knocking an arrow. I can't think of a way the vertical or slanty bow would obscure the area you aim at, since the arrow is held to the side of the bow... I guess I'd have to see a screenshot, though...

It's also definitely not easier to shoot, as you have to twist your draw arm the wrong way to keep the string straight. Doing this takes power from the shot, and not doing this makes the string vibrate left and right, causing the arrow to fishtail and spiral erratically. One of the things you are taught as an archer is to check your 'string picture' to make sure that the bow is lined up correctly, and is held steadily vertical. One of the people at our club has problems with this

In the end, no, it's not archery simulator. But getting it accurate would be preferable to me, and in addition, I prefer a vertical bow aesthetically speaking. Slantywise looks weird!

 

But I guess it doesn't really matter, anyways... I'm just a dedicated archer who's rather proud of his sport

[oDDity]

Map designers are really making their own little mods with our big mod. THey can change almost anythig to suit themselves.

We have to make decisions on what we're settign as the default and stick to them, otherwise the game will never be released.

It would be simple to move the bow over so you can aim with your knickles, I'm not against it. I've never shot a bow so I don't have a legitimate opinion on the subject.

All I can say is, that it is not difficult at all to aim the way it is now. No sights are required.

[Springheel]

I've done some archery too. Not sport shooting, but for hunting. And if you need to stand and draw quickly, you have a better chance of your arrow falling off the knock if you hold the bow perfectly verticle. We have other archers on board, so don't worry. We're striking a nice balance between realism and gameplay.

[FishFace]

Well, whatever you say Spring We all go for the old "hold the arrow with a finger" while knocking it, and after that the rest just holds it in place. You gots to make sure you don't put your fingers to close, though - otherwise you inadvertently knock it off!

 

Anywho, like I said, from an aesthetics POV, ignoring archery coaching and so on, I do prefer the upright bow. I guess the whole shooting while crouched isn't exactly realistic, either. Having said that, we have a boxing-day shoot, with insane targets. This year, we had to shoot through a slitted wall, and the highest scoring item was completely hidden. One member knelt down and nailed it every time

I guess oDD's right, though - it'll be nice to have actual campaigns, with variations from one to another. I just hope that people do make campaigns, not just single missions, though.

 

</FishFace>

[Ishtvan]

Is it a difference between target shooting, where you have time to get a good nock and draw and everything, and combat shooting, where you just want to nock the arrow as soon as possible with minimum chance of it falling off?

[sah]

Well... An ideal situation would be to include different types of bows, and you could then choose which one you'd like to use before a mission. I don't know how much work this is, but it surely won't hurt the gameplay.

[Dram]

When did we ever give the indication we wanted suggestions about the bow?

 

The public forums are here for the express purpose of giving the public a chance to talk and give their opinions on things. But the idea that we should be polling the public before making "major design decisions" is ridiculous.

Jeez, you don't understand.

 

eg: We are making a nuke arrow. We're not sure if it would unbalance the game, so we ask the public (in a poll if need be). They say "holy fuck!?! a nuke arrow!?! please no!". And then we see that NO-ONE except maybe one or 2 on the team like it, so we say "fuck that".

 

That's what me and my brother meant. Not that we *have* to ask public in decisions, but I can perfectly understand if they want their suggestions heard, cos after all, they will be the ones mapping for it, and so saying that they're not paying for it is rather nasty, considering WE won't be paying for the missions THEY make.

 

I am not "all for" having public saying they want this in and we have to chop off our dicks to get it in, no, I'm saying that we could have a couple of polls for some controversial issues, like now - guns. Speaking of them, who would like Flintlocks (which DID exist in medieval times, but were useless) existing in the game? They would be extremely rare.

 

That kind of an issue helps if we could have public input. No good if we attract the hardcore FPS'ers who make missions in which they introduce nuke arrows is it?

[Springheel]

eg: We are making a nuke arrow. We're not sure if it would unbalance the game, so we ask the public (in a poll if need be). They say "holy fuck!?! a nuke arrow!?! please no!". And then we see that NO-ONE except maybe one or 2 on the team like it, so we say "fuck that".

 

If only one or two people on the team wanted it, we wouldn't do it. Haven't you been involved in any of the discussions thus far? We have at least fifteen people on the team who post on a regular basis, representing a wide variety of thief fans.

 

Any mod team that kept polling the public about what they should or shouldn't do with their mod would communicate that they were: 1) horribly insecure 2) highly inexperienced or 3) unable to effectively make decisions internally.

[Ishtvan]

We might have a beta testing phase when we are closer to release too where we release to a few more people and get their opinions (I'm not speaking officially here, that's just an idea). At this point in time tho, we are so far from release that opening up every decision to public opinion would bring any progress to a grinding halt.

[Dram]

If only one or two people on the team wanted it, we wouldn't do it. Haven't you been involved in any of the discussions thus far? We have at least fifteen people on the team who post on a regular basis, representing a wide variety of thief fans.

 

Any mod team that kept polling the public about what they should or shouldn't do with their mod would communicate that they were: 1) horribly insecure 2) highly inexperienced or 3) unable to effectively make decisions internally.

or 4) Are actually making it for the fans as well as themselves.

[Springheel]

I can't begin to fathom how you can be part of any of the discussions that go on in the dev forums and seriously believe that we aren't making this "for the fans".

[New Horizon]

Let me put a cap on this nasty little discussion. WE are fans.

We've had enough polls and inside discussions from the time we began to know that expanding the input and or decision making process is sheer creative suicide. It's a nice thought, but not completely practical. We have a fair representation of the fanbase within our group.

 

Now that I've had to be "Dark" Horizon for a moment, lets get back on track...shall we.

[Dram]

I can't begin to fathom how you can be part of any of the discussions that go on in the dev forums and seriously believe that we aren't making this "for the fans".

I have participated in all of the discussions since i came on board.

 

I know we are Thief fans, hence the making of this mod. But I still firmly believe that if this mod is to be the final resting point of the Thief series, then we had better take into consideration what the actual fans that we are making this for would like to or like not to see in the mod. It'll help to get outside opinion.

 

Sorry NH for continuing this discussion, but it is quite a necessary one.

[Dram]

reading through this again, it's probably better if it gets closed...

[New Horizon]

Gladly.