Fan Mission: Volta II - Cauldron of the Gods by Kingsal (11/30/17) V2.3

[AluminumHaste]

Bug report:https://bugs.thedarkmod.com/view.php?id=6244

[kingsal]

@AluminumHasteYeah I suspected this might be the case. I never trusted those force entities. I remember seeing them behave differently with uncapped FPS on but I totally forgot I used them in cauldron.  

[AluminumHaste]

From what I can gather from the code, it looks like force is multiplied each frame, so more frames means more force.

[datiswous]

I recently read about Delta timing . I wonder if this is related..

Edited February 2, 2023 by datiswous

[chakkman]

On 1/24/2018 at 7:05 AM, GEPGUN said:

Does anyone else find the

  Reveal hidden contents

Apebeasts

to be blackjack-proof when they are squatting down? I ended up quicksaving right before one was squatting down to pick up a weapon, but every blackjack attempt failed. Either it would hit his rear and not KO, or the blackjack would whiff right through him. The only way to get him was to wait until he would stand back up.

Re-playing this, I had a lot of issues with blackjacking them. Not just when they're squatting down, also when they're standing or walking. 9 out of 10 blackjack attempts failed. 

But then, blackjacking is the #1 issue of The Dark Mod in general anyway. It just doesn't work well. Seemed to be even (quite a bit) worse with the apebeasts though.

Edited July 5, 2023 by chakkman

[AluminumHaste]

50 minutes ago, chakkman said:

But then, blackjacking is the #1 issue of The Dark Mod in general anyway. It just doesn't work well. Seemed to be even (quite a bit) worse with the apebeasts though.

For you, 90 percent of players have no issue.

[chakkman]

42 minutes ago, AluminumHaste said:

For you, 90 percent of players have no issue.

I didn't know that you made a research study on the subject.  

But, jokes aside, I think we're running in circles, aren't we? I could as well argue that, just because you have no problem with it, or act like there isn't a problem, doesn't mean that the majority of peple don't have a problem with it.

Blackjacking in TDM always worked very different to blackjacking in the original Thief's. I never had an issue with blackjacking in the original Thief's, but, since I play TDM (which is probably 13 to 14 years now), I had a lot of issues blackjacking in it. That's all I can say. Maybe my blackjacking skills magically vanish whenever I boot TDM. IDK.

Or maybe blackjacking just plain sucks in TDM.

Edited July 5, 2023 by chakkman

[AluminumHaste]

Sounds like a skill issue

[chakkman]

Do you realize how little helpful you are?

Especially when I quote someone who had the same issues in this mission with a specific type of enemy. But, suuuure, it's just a skill issue. That's why this topic came up so often over the years.

Let's just end this now though. You will never be able to accept that there is an issue with the blackjack system. It's fine, and it doesn't matter. What matters if that people do have issues with the blackjacking.

And, if you allow me one last personal thing: It was absolutely fkn annoying to have to quicksave and quickload every time I missed a blackjack again in this mission. The mission is one of my absolute favorites, but, the blackjacking really sucked the life out of me in this one. It's absolutely frustrating to again and again have to re-load, and it's the one thing which seriously frustrates me about this mod in general. Everything else is on par, or even an improvement over the original games, except the blackjacking. It's beyond horrible. Even with the blackjack indicator, which doesn't work reliable either, by the way. The indicator didn't indicate that I was in a position for a successful K.O. even if the K.O. was successful. I don't know WTH is wrong with the system. Much too sensitive, much too dependant on the range and point of impact. It doesn't make sense in a game where you can't judge the distance as if you would in virtual reality, or in real life. It should be much more forgiving, and less sensitive.

Edited July 5, 2023 by chakkman

[AluminumHaste]

Omg it was good natured ribbing, hence the emoji.

I have not tried blackjacking them when they're crouched, will give it a try

[chakkman]

It's not just an issue when they're crouched.

[kingsal]

I was going to say I think their crouch pose might be moving the invisible KO volume too high. I can have a look at this.

@chakkmanI agree the blackjacking in TDM can be fickle. Do you have the latest 2.11 updates with the new assisted black jack system? I've been using it since 2.11 and personally, I love it. 

EDIT: Alright so... I think because cauldron was made before that system- there might be some funkiness going on here because I have a modified version of the blackjack. 
@chakkman If its not too much trouble, can you try unpacking cauldron_v2_2.pk4. Be sure to "Extract here" so it puts all the files right where the pk4 is. 

Go to cauldron_v2_2/def/tdm_weapon_blackjack.def and delete that file. 

See if this helps. 

Edited July 5, 2023 by kingsal

[chakkman]

Thanks for taking your time. I just tried it (to be sure, I don't have to delete the cauldron_v2_2.pk4 after unpacking, right?), and, it doesn't seem to make a difference.

Did a little video to illustrate my problems: https://drive.google.com/file/d/109NEYxgZTlrqD2rt65PY4jQ0KUhpC-PT/view?usp=sharing

On the first attempt, I might have been too far away. On the second attempt, the beast might have been in a state of awareness due to me running towards it (even though that worked in the past with guards in other missions). The third attempt felt perfect, no idea why I didn't succeed there.  Same on the fourth attempt. The fifth attempt was successful, and I have no idea why, as the former two attempts seem to have been almost exactly the same.

I have the A.I. hearing to "forgiving", by the way, as that works better for me, as the A.I. can't hear your footsteps from a mile away. It's still much more sensitive than in the original Thief's (talking about sensitivity...), but, it works alright for me.

That video is pretty much exactly what I experienced throughout the whole mission with the beasts. Every time I tried a K.O., i had to try several times to succeed. As I mentioned above, blackjacking is a general issue in the mod, but, it seems to be even more of an issue with this type of enemy.

Oh, and the guy wearing the mask (the king? ) was the hardest to knockout. I needed at least 10 or 12 attempts to knock him out. 

Edit: Sorry, just fixed the permission for the video.

Edited July 5, 2023 by chakkman

[kingsal]

@chakkmanAhh right so I see what's happening there. The beast is playing an "eating" animation which is making his head very hard to hit  Probably similar to their crouch and maybe other animations such as the walk. It could also be that their head is just too far forward in a lot of cases. Sucks because thats a lot of animations to fix if it is indeed the problem. 

Thanks for finding this. I don't know if I'll have time to fix that animations soon, but as your playing just be aware when their head looks up and down, it will also change the hit detection volume. 

I can't tell from the video but is your blackjack raising up to signal a successful hit? It should shift up slightly if you are about to get a KO.  That was integrated in 2.11

 

Edited July 5, 2023 by kingsal

[chakkman]

3 minutes ago, kingsal said:

I can't tell from the video but is your blackjack raising up to signal a successful hit? It should shift up slightly if you are about to get a KO.  That was integrated in 2.11

I was wondering as well. It doesn't look like it, but, it's hard to tell, because I used the lean forward feature shortly before I hit with the blackjack. I could have sworn that it sometimes didn't indicate it when I played the mission. But, I'm not 100% sure now.

Again, thanks for taking your time. I just thought I'd mention it, because, over the whole mission, it seemed to me that the beasts are harder to knock out than human A.I.'s.

[ChronA]

2 hours ago, chakkman said:

Did a little video to illustrate my problems

It looked to me like you hit the beast's back or shoulders every time (even the one that worked). Is it possible that this could be a hardware based problem? Maybe your system is giving you particularly high latency, making it impossible to do fine, last millisecond adjustments to your aim. That would fit with the evidence in the video, since in several attempts the target started to move before you were in position but you still swung the blackjack. It would also explain why the blackjack indicator would be less helpful to you.

[datiswous]

Btw. I see this fm still uses it's own secret system, instead of the build-in one from tdm 2.10+ ?

//code that keeps track of secrets. From goldwell

	float secrets_count;
	
	void trigger_secrets()
		{
			secrets_count = secrets_count + 1;
			
			//Added a total number kept in $Secret_Message
			string secret_num = "You have found " + (secrets_count - 1) + " of " + ($Secret_Message.getFloatKey("secrets_total")) + " secrets !"; 
			
			//Play secret sound kept in $Secret_Message
			string secret_sound = $Secret_Message.getKey("snd_secret");
			$player1.cacheSoundShader(secret_sound);
			$player1.startSoundShader(secret_sound, SND_CHANNEL_VOICE ); //play secret sound
			
			//Display message
			$Secret_Message.setKey("text", secret_num);
			$Secret_Message.activate($player1);
		}	

https://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Secrets#Updating_your_mission_to_use_the_secrets_system

[snatcher]

The Frob Helper doesn't work in this mission. I suggest an update of tdm_player_thief.def to the latest version.

[kingsal]

It looks like this mission's been broken for a while. I've updated it to be compatible with 2.12. @nbohr1moreWould you mind updating this on the mission downloader? 

Version 2.3 (requires 2.12)

Available in the in-game downloader or HERE

[nbohr1more]

Will do

[nbohr1more]

Mission database has been updated.

I couldn't rename the file without creating a whole new database entry ( thus breaking the "updater" feature ).

[Sotha]

Played this tonight. Great mission!

It had a lot of Trail of Blood feeling from Thief 2. Relatively easy side, because there was plenty of darkness and plenty of space. Easy, well, if one doesn't take too much jumping risk. I did and of course fell to my death, last save million steps away, serves me right.

Next time I was much more cautious and made good progress.

As soon as I saw

Spoiler

the tree house I knew that's where the Bellero was. The bloodwaterslide was fun, but I though first it was poison and didn't touch the liquid before saving. Should it have been no save run, I would have dragged Bellero out the hard way.

I also used a lot of tools that usually get very little use in many TDM missions (my included, sadly) I used rope arrows to maximum effect and also used even moss arrow: I didn't know that the base of the elevator can be accessed through the main door of the sanctuary. Instead I moss arrowed the bottom of the elevator and jumped down from the hole in the wall with Bellero. Took only a little bit damage and out we went, both alive and well. Moss arrow is way too underappreciated.

Yet another masterpiece among TDM missions, good work!

[sittingduck71]

Thank you so much for this fantastic mission, Trail of Blood was one of my favorite Thief 2 missions and The Lost City was my fav from TDP, and this was a bit of both. Much of my video game playing lately has been just passing time, but this was actually so fun! Nice to play an immersive sim again where I was actually...well, immersed! 

[kingsal]

@Sotha Thanks for playing and 'Im glad you liked it. Its cool to hear that you used more tools in the mission. It just makes it more fun!

@sittingduck71Thats great to hear, I also loved Trail of Blood and The Lost City. They're just cool themes for missions and at the time, much like most of Thief, they were very unique. 

Edited January 19, 2025 by kingsal

[datiswous]

Here are subtitles for this fm. I think they're alright, but currently playing the mission with them.

Volta2_subs.pk4