Ultra Realism Possibilities?

[Springheel]

I don't think it would be bad for gameplay - it worked OK in Splinter Cell, but I can see it being abused if FM authors aren't careful about it.

 

I don't know how Splinter Cell does it, but we've listed many different kinds of exploits that would be possible if AI climb ladders. And from an immersion perspective, if the AI don't use the ladders intelligently there's not much point in them using them at all.

 

But having AI NOT climbing ladders gives the player a huge advantage over the AI -

 

AI in TDM won't be helpless if a Thief goes somewhere they can't follow, and they won't just stand around at the bottom of a ladder waiting to be shot.

[obscurus]

Oh I, won't disagree that there aren't exploits, I would merely suggest that if they are realistic exploits, that is not necessarily a bad thing. After all, if someone was chasing you up a ladder in RL, you would probably want to exploit their vulnerability to get away. I don't see that as being radically different to sneaking up on a guard while they are unaware and Blackjacking them - in that instance you are exploiting their unawareness, if you take out an AI climbing a ladder you are exploiting their exposure to attack.

 

I agree, if you can't get AI to climb ladders in a way that is realistic and intelligent, it does nothing for immersion, but I know from the examples in Splinter Cell that it can be done well, and there are a few other games (can't remember which ones off-hand) that managed to do an OK job. I imagine it takes a lot of work to get the AI code and animations right, so I certainly won't be too disapointed if ladder climbing AI don't make it into the first release.

 

It is good that you are making the AI a bit less thick-headed than the chumps in Thief - hopefully getting violent will have more realistic consequences for the player...

Edited July 21, 2005 by obscurus

[New Horizon]

I was just going to say what Spring said. The guards aren't going to simply crowd around, they work together and if there is another way to get to you....aside from climbing the ladder, they will use it. Best to avoid detection.

[Fingernail]

You know, we probably could do the mansion-engulfed in flame thing if someone drops a torch, but really, what's the use? Except it ruins a mission completely. And I can imagine AIs accidentally setting light to stuff if they were carrying torches.

[obscurus]

That should really fail the mission anyway - all the loot would be destroyed, along with the building... It would take a vast amount of computing power to treat fire realistically, so I prefer if open flames are used sparingly... have guards carry a lantern instead of a torch if they are in a mainly wooden building - after all, a sensible guard would take the precaution of not doing things that would put his masters property at risk of fire damage, so it isn't really realistic to have open flames in certain areas anyway. If you are going to do flammable objects, they should be restricted to a few types so as to avoid large conflagrations. But I would hope that TDM does not become a simulator for pyromaniacs, so don't go overboard with fire if you can avoid it...

[Springheel]

People are too used to Hollywood style explosive combustion. Dropping a torch onto a floor would not start anything on fire, other than perhaps burning a hole in a rug. Unless the flame falls on a surface that is highly combustable (soaked in oil or flamable chemicals), it will just sit there. In simplified terms, flame won't spread unless it can spread up.

[Maximius]

Return to Wolfenstein had ladder climbing AIs, which was nice for immersion, until you realized that ALL the AIs were climbing the ladders and you could sit atop the ladder and blow their heads off.

 

A suggestion I floated on TTLG a while back was that only a handful of AIs on a map could climb up a ladder to chase the Thief, while the majority cannot follow him up. So imagine the Thief is being pursued by guards but he scoots up a ladder. The majority of the guards cannot follow, for some rational reason like their armor is too heavy, but a few of them are more lightly armored and they can pursue the Thief up a ladder. So its actually a much tougher situation for the Thief, he has a pursuer coming up the ladder after him as well as guards on the ground looking for him. He cant lead all the AIs up the ladder then jump down or something, nor will stopping halfway up the ladder and hopping off utterly confuse the AIs either. It may confuse the climbing AIs but that wont really help the Thief too much.

[Domarius]

I'd be inclined to avoid ladders in the mission altogether except for places where the guards aren't likely to chase you to.

 

The "chasable areas" should be a finely tuned and heavily playtested area, where the FM author has spent ages getting the guards to chase him/her all over the place to make sure the guards can work as effectively as possible.

[FishFace]

I, also, would prefer ladder climbing if you could eliminate any unrealistic exploitations, such as following you with rude predictability. (Get the AI to take an alternative route, and surprise you?) It might still not be particularly feasible, but realistic exploit vs unrealistic exploit? I know which I prefer. The simple act of shinning up a ladder near an AI's patrol route means they cannot follow you, so if they run off and return to their patrol, you can unfairly snipe them.

 

Dropping a torch onto a floor would not start anything on fire, other than perhaps burning a hole in a rug.

 

Uh, what? If you have something nicely combustible like a carpet (or rug) then at least the whole of that would go up, given enough oxygen. How do you think a whole house can go up in flames - it doesn't just happen if you throw petrol on the floor! I don't know whether any of you have seen the fire service's demo of what happens if you set furniture alight (I don't even think it was the old, really flammable stuff) but basically within a minute or so, the entire room had become a literal inferno. In a carpeted room, it's easy for the fire to spread along the floor, and once it's reached the walls it can spread upwards more easily if they're made of flammable material.

[Springheel]

Uh, what? If you have something nicely combustible like a carpet (or rug) then at least the whole of that would go up, given enough oxygen.

 

Nope, sorry, not unless the carpet is made of some kind of extremely flamable material. It's the same as dropping a torch on a groomed lawn. Unless the grass is extremely dry or there's wind to push the flame sideways, you'll just wind up with a burnt circle around the torch.

 

Setting furniture alight is slightly different, as it has the potential to spread upwards. Putting a torch underneath something, whether it is furniture or curtains, is an entirely different matter.

[obscurus]

In mediaeval and Victorian castles and mansions, and the like, carpets and tapestries were primarily made of wool, which is flame retardant. You wouldn't have more than some localised singed carpet and a bad smell. Curtains might have been silk, which is not particularly flammable. In a modern house with acryllic carpet, the fire might spread if it was a particularly lush, deep pile, but most likely, as Springheel has pointed out, it will just burn a small radius of carpet around the torch. So as long as you avoid getting a flaming torch anywhere near a wooden ceiling or wall, you probably won't start too many fires...

[Guest KoHaN69]

Nope, sorry, not unless the carpet is made of some kind of extremely flamable material.  It's the same as dropping a torch on a groomed lawn.  Unless the grass is extremely dry or there's wind to push the flame sideways, you'll just wind up with a burnt circle around the torch.

 

Setting furniture alight is slightly different, as it has the potential to spread upwards.  Putting a torch underneath something, whether it is furniture or curtains, is an entirely different matter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

OK, I meant. *sigh*

 

Ok, thief3 had oillamps, that u threw, guards slipped (which is great but should ony work on solid surfaces)

and u can shoot a fire arrow and burn the guards.

well, that was my uestion about tdm, any of that type of support?

 

ex.: dropped oillamps break and burn, so wen u KO a guard, u gotta clik the lamp and put it down, and let the body thump, or let the lamp fall and burn (a dark hall in carpet that cant be cleaned, and acts like a blood spot.

 

2 other things

when u pick up an item u shoudl be able to "throw it" and "put it down softly"

(ex: acciedntly picked up a plate off a table, and gotta turn around and throw it on carpet, which brings my second point

 

AI object detection- if theres a bronze plate in the middle of the hallway, the guard should pik it up, get suuspicios and put it on the neares shelf or where it belongs.

 

 

and a 3rd thing- teamwork in guards needs to be more than "hey lets go look for him"

it should involve "random (reality)" for example, the not-so good vision guard looks in a shadow where you are almost hidden, doenst spot you looks on, the other guard whos searching starts searching that area, and the blinder guard should tell him "hey i already looked there!", then the random factor if the better-visoned guard would chek ur area or not shoudl kick in.

 

*sigh*

 

...i need 2 quite school and beta-test/codesign games, how do you do that again?

[obscurus]

I don't know if English is your native language, but if it is, I would politely suggest that you stay at school until it is somewhat better. Your spelling could use some work. I am not saying that to be rude or mean, it is just that your posts are a little difficult to read. And please write "you" instead of "u" if you can help it, and use capital letters occasionally, it would make your posts more readable. Don't get me wrong, you seem to have some fairly intelligent ideas, it just takes a while to decipher your writing. Once again, I am not trying to be rude or anything, I just think it is better to be up front about these things. And if English is not your native tongue, then don't worry too much about what I have said...

Edited July 21, 2005 by obscurus

[Ishtvan]

Mr. T says: Stay in school! (drink milk)

[Drakon]

The

 

GRAMMAR NAZIS

 

are watching your posts.

 

 

Sorry, I found an excuse to finally call someone else a grammar nazi and had to take it:)

[Guest KoHaN69]

I don't know if English is your native language, but if it is, I would politely suggest that you stay at school until it is somewhat better.  Your spelling could use some work.  I am not saying that to be rude or mean, it is just that your posts are a little difficult to read.  And please write "you" instead of "u" if you can help it, and use capital letters occasionally, it would make your posts more readable.  Don't get me wrong, you seem to have some fairly intelligent ideas, it just takes a while to decipher your writing.  Once again, I am not trying to be rude or anything, I just think it is better to be up front about these things.  And if English is not your native tongue, then don't worry too much about what I have said...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's not my native language, but I've bin here for 9 years.

And the reason I'm unstructured is because I write my thoughts and don't edit them.

I will do you a favor and write you's and I's.

I will also capitalicize, ehm, I mean capitalize my letters.

 

;-)

 

-Now, anything on my post?

[obscurus]

No worries mate, English is a bugger of a language to learn, even for the natives... I had to edit my last post three times to get rid of some silly typos

 

Out of curiosity, what is your native language?

 

I think all of your ideas are quite good, not being a coder I can't really comment on the feasibility of implementing them all, although I am curious as to how you see your idea of catching oil lamps from KO'd guards working.

 

I like your suggestion regarding guards noticing and picking up out of place items.

 

In Thief 1/2/3 you could drop an item softly or throw it, so I would assume that TDM will continue that tradition.

Edited July 22, 2005 by obscurus

[FishFace]

Yeah, the R key dropped things, by default (IIRC)

 

I also like the idea of stuff being noticed if out of place, that would add another level of things you have to consider as in real life. = More immersion!

 

I guess burnt patches in carpets would be an interesting idea, and would make you want to KO people on tiles or stone (although tiles could be dodgy if glazed) however, this could be bad for gameplay as using arrows against people would become even more risky after the body making noise when it hits the floor.

I guess I can accept your world-wise advice on fires, but I'm pretty sure that even normal materals will spread fire if set alight, otherwise we wouldn't be drummed with not knocking candles over and so on. Presumably depends on the temperature of the fire starting it... Anyone have details on the temperature of oil-soaked rags? Obviously depends on the materal, too, though, so there's no gameplay problem - the thing that would have to be done well would be the graphical side of it. If the graphics are unbelievable, people will want to know why the whole house isn't going up.

[Guest KoHaN69]

Out of curiosity, what is your native language?

 

I think all of your ideas are quite good, not being a coder I can't really comment on the feasibility of implementing them all, although I am curious as to how you see your idea of catching oil lamps from KO'd guards working.

 

I like your suggestion regarding guards noticing and picking up out of place items.

 

In Thief 1/2/3 you could drop an item softly or throw it, so I would assume that TDM will continue that tradition.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Russian is my native language (Although my alias is Japanese, I got it from Rising Sun by Crichton)

 

Previously the idea was discussed that you would have to catch a guard before he falls, otherwise he would make a noise (I suggest only on carpet he makes no noise or minimum, if made noise even on carpet it would be unrealistically hard)

 

So, if the guard is holding an oil-lamp, you have to either catch the oil-lamp (and let the body thump on floor) or catch the gaurd, avoiding the noise, but the oil-lamp will break and cause a small burned spot on carpet/wood.

 

Another thing, everyone should notice blood on hard surface, such as tiles, not everyone should notice blood on dark carpet or burn on floor.

Or only notice them when they are in alert mode.

 

 

 

Yeah, the R key dropped things, by default (IIRC)

 

I also like the idea of stuff being noticed if out of place, that would add another level of things you have to consider as in real life. = More immersion!

 

If the graphics are unbelievable, people will want to know why the whole house isn't going up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I had no idea, i beat thief 3 without R key, thanks, it would of made the game even MORE easier.

 

I also believe, that as a thief, you should be able to pick up candles that are lit, and estinguish only by choice, this would be a great distraction.

(ex: on a guards patrol route, you take a candle off a table and put it [still lit] on a stairway on the floor, the gaurd would notice and get curious and check it out why it's there and put it back on it's place, or wherever he thinks it belongs (a table)

 

Meanwhile, you have the chance to get by.

This is all just an alternative to the 'noisemaking' techinique, but much more imersion, and not too tricky for coders/FMers.

 

Fire is not always so grapchically insane. you can have fire as a single lightsource, you dont necesarily need that many to make it look realistic, as long as it's more that just a flat texture.

(check out the fire in Splinter Cell 1, good performance/qualty)

 

And fire, as said should burn a patch and die, (the faster you hit the fire with your blackjack, the smaller the burned patch will be )

 

And another note,

if a guard is carrying an object he should put it down prior to fighting you.

And KOed guards should wake up (realistically- average sleep of 3 hours, and when they wake up, they alert the house, I need to elaborate on this)

Some missions may need a time-limit, I suggest day/night circles (realistically ofcourse ) I want my missions to be 11 hours long

Edited July 22, 2005 by KoHaN69

[Ishtvan]

I also like the idea of stuff being noticed if out of place, that would add another level of things you have to consider as in real life. = More immersion!

 

We've discussed this and it's planned. We are thinking of attaching different importance to items being displaced in different rooms. For example, guards wouldn't care too much if someone moved a chair in the guard barracks, since they'd figure another guard did it. But if they are patrolling thru the Lord's bedroom when he's out of town and notice a chair knocked over, or even an inkwell knocked over on the desk and not set back upright, they should be more alerted. The alert amount could also depend on which specific items have moved.

 

Also, different guards will have different thresholds for noticing things out of place and doors open (called it "environmental acuity").

 

Players would also have the option of jacking up this setting in the overall AI difficulty options if they really want to be forced to put everything back exactly as they found it.

[SplaTtzZ]

Great!

 

Having guards with different acuity and noticing things out of place sounds really realistic.

 

A question though; how easy is it for the player to knock something over or disturb the environment? In Thief: DS I noticed that the player had to literally be running against something like a chair for a while before it fell over. And then sometimes it was as though all that pent up energy of him running against it was released in one go and it flew across the room!

 

Will The Dark Mod be trying to implement collision physics a little more realistically than Thief: DS did? As I understand it, you would need to have a player model and some sort of Body Awareness (I'm not a coder or anything though), and without these it can often make it difficult for players to see whether they're touching an object in First Person.

[Domarius]

To answer your question, just play Doom 3. You'll notice that movable items roll and bump around the moment you start moving against them, depending on their weight. A hamburger container will roll along lightly when you brush past it, but a crate will slowly roll along and gather momentum gradually.

[FishFace]

Your examples of burger cartons and such aren't quite accurate analogically, because in TDS if you pushed lighter things that were physics enabled, they'd react appropriately. The thing is, the overall settings were tuned too low, or friction too high... Perhaps because in DX:IW, it was too easy to make things fly around.

 

Glad to hear about the possiblity of a new playstyle: "Thief: Deadly Fastidiousness" or something

[Domarius]

That wasn't an analogy - I was refering to actual Doom 3 objects, actual stuff I'd done in the game.

[Sepultaris]

hi hi, newbie to the forums, love the work you've done so far can't wait to see a beta realase.. anyways on to the topic at hand. If you are going to/thinking about adding sqeaky floorboards at least put them in an area where guards have a set patrol route. so that when your watching the guard to figure out where he goes and how long it takes to get there, you can see him step on the squeaky board and have a chance to learn where it is. i think that would be a good way to impliment this idea in to the game. That way if the player did get caught by the noise made by the floorboard it would be the players fault and not just some random event brought on by the code or an invisible trap put in place by the mapper.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

::off topic:: i would love to help model random objects ie: furniture, chairs, glasses ect...

but i can't find an MD5 plugin for maya if anyone could point me in the right direction i'd whip up a few things and apply.