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View Stealth Score during gameplay?


kcghost

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9 hours ago, Abusimplea said:

Looks like there are GUI system changes in 2.10 and that addon is probably based on Dragofer's version for 2.07, which is based on the original GUI from back then. Chances are, that it has to be updated to work with 2.10 even if it worked fine with 2.09.

I recommend mentioning the issue in the linked thread if you are still interested in using the addon.

I believe there is no relationship between kcghost's addon and mine. His works by replacing the loot counter inventory item and scriptobject to show stealth statistics. The GUI update in 2.10 only concerns the menu interfaces, so it's not clear to me why this shouldn't work.

The problem of no loading progress often happens when loading a save that's based on a different version of the game, which most likely includes any change in the .pk4 addons you have installed.

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2 hours ago, Dragofer said:

The problem of no loading progress often happens when loading a save that's based on a different version of the game, which most likely includes any change in the .pk4 addons you have installed.

That's interesting.  I'll see what happens if I try starting a new mission instead.

Edit: Oh wow, that seems to be enough.  Started a new mission without any problem, and loading the saves now works.

I've not seen this behaviour before, so thanks for the hint.

Edit: Is the installer supposed to delete .pk4 files that aren't part of the standard install?  Looks like tdm_loot_stealth_stats.pk4 vanished on the upgrade beta -01 to -02, so I have to put it back again.  Don't remember the installer saying anything though...

Edited by Araneidae
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3 hours ago, Araneidae said:

Edit: Is the installer supposed to delete .pk4 files that aren't part of the standard install?  Looks like tdm_loot_stealth_stats.pk4 vanished on the upgrade beta -01 to -02, so I have to put it back again.  Don't remember the installer saying anything though...

@stgatilovMaybe there could be a way for the tdm_installer to recognise and leave custom .pk4 addons alone? Maybe via naming convention?

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15 hours ago, Dragofer said:

@stgatilovMaybe there could be a way for the tdm_installer to recognise and leave custom .pk4 addons alone? Maybe via naming convention?

Yes, indeed.

Every pk4 which starts with "tdm_" in root directory, and a few hardcoded missions in fms are considered part of TDM installation, and installer can delete them.

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Ah right so @Araneidaethe .pk4 addon's name should not start with tdm_, otherwise the tdm_installer treats it like a stock .pk4 that'll be deleted when updating.

Try putting z_ in front of its name, or _a if that doesnt work. Let me know which one works.

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On 12/27/2021 at 9:43 AM, Dragofer said:

Try putting z_ in front of its name, or _a if that doesnt work. Let me know which one works.

Certainly putting z_ in front means the numbers show and the addon isn't deleted (have just upgraded to beta -03).

However, it looks to me as if the addon isn't working properly.  I started up "The Bakery Job" (default settings after .cfg reset after beta upgrade), let the maid in the garden see me ... and she runs off crying ... and all my stealth scores remain firmly at zero.

Is there anything else I can do to debug?  Presumably there are some console commands I can run to cross-check the values shown by z_tdm_loot_stealth_stats.pk4?  It's definitely not working properly for me at the moment!

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22 minutes ago, Araneidae said:

Certainly putting z_ in front means the numbers show and the addon isn't deleted (have just upgraded to beta -03).

However, it looks to me as if the addon isn't working properly.  I started up "The Bakery Job" (default settings after .cfg reset after beta upgrade), let the maid in the garden see me ... and she runs off crying ... and all my stealth scores remain firmly at zero.

Is there anything else I can do to debug?  Presumably there are some console commands I can run to cross-check the values shown by z_tdm_loot_stealth_stats.pk4?  It's definitely not working properly for me at the moment!

I think that's a unique bug in that civilians spotting the player at close range don't count towards the stealth score. It's even got a ticket in the bugtracker.

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1 hour ago, Dragofer said:

I think that's a unique bug in that civilians spotting the player at close range don't count towards the stealth score. It's even got a ticket in the bugtracker.

Hmm.  That's pretty odd!  She was definitely in a panic about it.  Do you know the tracker link?

Not sure that's the only issue here though, but I'll have to play a bit to see what else pops up.  I was going to report a similar problem, involving a guard at a distance, but I couldn't readily reproduce it:

This happened in the first arena of Requiem with beta -02, I was taking the loot from the fixed illuminated window on the ledge over the road, and was careless.  The guard on the road had obviously spotted me, because when I looked he was walking in circles at the other end of the road with his sword out ... but my stealth score was all zeros!  I briefly tried to reproduce this, maybe I should try again with -03?

Think I'll continue testing with The Bakery Job, it's less painful to have to throw everything away each time there's a new beta as it's so small, and I don't get much time to play or make progress.

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On 1/1/2022 at 3:23 PM, Dragofer said:

I think that's a unique bug in that civilians spotting the player at close range don't count towards the stealth score. It's even got a ticket in the bugtracker.

It's definitely worse that this.

Playing The Bakery Job, have everything except the cash box, all scores zero so far ... and the guard bumps into me, goes into full alert ... and the stealth score remains zero!  So is the bug in TDM or the monitor?  Figure all I have to do is walk out the door to end the mission, so I do that, also alerting the maid on the way out ... and I have a perfect zero score on mission complete!

Whoops.  Something very wrong here: guard in full alert mode, sword out, trying to kill me, plus civilian also in full panic, and I can end the mission with a perfect zero/zero stealth score.  This is with beta -03.

This is definitely a bug, though a little tricky to reproduce reliably.  Will be a shame if this isn't fixable.

Edit: It seems to be very reproducible: simply bump into the patrolling guard in the dark, and he goes into full alert status without updating anything in the stealth score.

Edited by Araneidae
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Don't see how something like this can be tied to the mission.  Also, I very much doubt that The Bakery Job has any tricksy scripting under the hood, it's one of the simplest missions I know (small but perfectly formed, a nice first Supreme Ghost, nearly there...).  At the moment my money is on a 2.10 beta bug.

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  • 3 weeks later...

If I recall this issue correctly, the alert has to be attributable to the player. Of course if a separate AI puts a guard on alert, that shouldn't add to the player's score. If there's a weapon on the ground or a door open / torch unlit (with the "door shouldn't be open" / "torch should be lit" boxes checked), the guard will go on alert, but nothing is attributable to the player yet (I think), since anything can cause those events. If they find a noise arrow, then it gets more debatable as it still follows the general unattributable weapon rule, but as a game, only the player is using noise arrows. (That may have been updated though.)

So the issue here may be that it's a touch stim, not a sight or hearing stim. That's what I'd look into. Does the touch stim creating an alert carry an "attributable to player" property which is properly being registered by the part of the code that counts up the score? Or something like that. It could be a completely different issue, but it sounds like something to do with the touch stim.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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Unfortunately it's not only touch stim, it's also visual triggers.

Had a very interesting example in The Accountant 1, in a room with a seated civilian and a torch illuminating a chest I want to visit (suspect I'll have to quench the torch, which is a supreme bust) -- he saw me, of course, went into alarm state and then ran away in panic.

The stealth status was very interesting: first of all I got a level 1 alert, which then went away, all alerts went back to zero!  When I went back out, all the guards were also in alert state, he'd obviously alarmed them all.  Let me see if I can reproduce this.

Edit.  Yes, it's completely reproducible:

  • Walk into room so I can be seen, just stand there
  • Score goes through three states: 1 0 0 0 1 then 0 1 0 0 2 then 0 0 0 0 0
  • NPC runs away in panic

That's not what I would expect of a perfect run!

By the way, I'm a bit confused by the Score (the fifth number): I thought the first level of stealth failure had no impact on the final score.

Edited by Araneidae
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Yes, level 1 alerts don't count to the score.*
If other people are being alerted by his barks, I don't know how attribution works. But I believe it's not going to be counted to the score even if it's attributed because we got rid of alert cascades, where 1 alert can cascade into stealth scores that go into the 100s.

I haven't looked into the details recently, but if it turns out to be a trade off between these two bugs, stealth scores where a tiny alert cascades the score into the 100s vs. transmitted alerts triggered by a tiny alert only counting that tiny alert (and in the case of an level-1 alert, not counting at all), I think I still think we're on the right side of that dilemma with stopping the cascade.

That's just my initial guess that that's what's happening, though.

---

Re: your last question...

At the bottom of the stat screen should be a down arrow. When you click it, it takes you to a new screen that shows you the exact break down of the Stealth Score. There are 5 alert levels. The first two are "suspicion", the first of which is not counted to the score (but is counted in the "Suspicions" count). So only 2nd level suspicions are counted to the score (x1). The next two are "search" (x2 and x3 I think). And the last one is a sighting (x5 I think it was?).

I don't know what you mean by "the fifth number" because I don't have a screenshot of the stat screen on-hand and don't feel like playing a whole mission to completion to get one. If you post one and circle the number that you mean then I can let you know more specifically, if what I said doesn't already answer your question.

 

* Footnote on that: A substantial number of FMs have the player putting AI on level 1 alerts even when they just spawn! Or in places it's impossible to pass without a level-1 alert. So there's a good case to drop it, at least from the stealth score, because it's ridiculously sensitive. And we still do count it in the Alert list! So it's not like you're completely "getting away with it". But we thought the score should be as fair-play as we could make it.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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Actually, I'm a little confused about exactly what the stealth score script is showing.  I've attached a quick screenshot, and here are the corresponding lines from the script fetching the basic statistics:

numberTimesAISuspicious = sys.getMissionStatistic("numberTimesAISuspicious");
numberTimesAISearched   = sys.getMissionStatistic("numberTimesAISearched");
numberTimesPlayerSeen   = sys.getMissionStatistic("numberTimesPlayerSeen");
bodiesFound             = sys.getMissionStatistic("bodiesFound");
stealthScore            = sys.getMissionStatistic("stealthScore");
missionLoot             = sys.getMissionStatistic("missionLoot");

I'm not sure if the first number includes the lowest level of suspicion or not, if not I'd be grateful if someone could tell me what the corresponding variable would be and I'll try and add it. Edit: looks like "numberTimesAISuspicious" includes both level #1 (score 0) and level #2 (score 1) alerts, so that's fine for me.

The bug I'm describing is 100% repeatable.  I'll first describe using a civilian, it's much more predictable:

  1. Start a small mission.  The Bakery Job is perfect for this, it has a civilian and a guard (and two other characters, one sleeping).
  2. Expose yourself to the civilian (maid).  She'll run off screaming ... and the stealth score remains zero.
  3. Complete the mission (can be done very quickly with TBJ) to verify that the stealth score is zero.

I'd love for this to be acknowledged as a serious bug, please!  Honestly, this is spoiling the fun of trying for an extreme ghost.

I'll see what I can do about flashing the guard.  It's harder to get a zero stealth score after being seen, but I've definitely done it.  Edit: running through the light right in his face seems to do the trick.

This is all with recent 2.10 betas.  If necessary I'll test with 2.09, but given that 2.10 is very close to release I don't see the point.

stealth.jpg

Edited by Araneidae
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6 minutes ago, Araneidae said:

This is all with recent 2.10 betas.  If necessary I'll test with 2.09, but given that 2.10 is very close to release I don't see the point.

The point is that it is "very risky" to make big changes to code in the final phase of a beta. Therefore we generally only fix regressions at this point. If you can test on 2.09 or older and the problem doesn't exist then we will need to fix this before releasing. Otherwise, it is a long-standing bug that needs to be fixed for 2.11.

Also, please see if the bug is reproducible with:

1) Capped FPS ( com_fixedTic 0 )

2) No multi-core ( com_smp 0 r_useParallelAddModels 0  AKA Frontend Accelleration disabled  )

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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31 minutes ago, nbohr1more said:

1) Capped FPS ( com_fixedTic 0 )

2) No multi-core ( com_smp 0 r_useParallelAddModels 0  AKA Frontend Accelleration disabled  )

Already have `com_fixedTic 0` set, just tried with no multi-core, no change in the issue.

Guess I'd better dust off 2.09 then!

Edit: Alas :(  It's the same in 2.09.  I did the following:

  • AI hearing and vision set to hardcore.
  • Load Bakery Job, go in through the door (dodging all the other users).  Score all zeros at this point.
  • Stand in the light in front of the maid.  She runs off crying, stealth score still zero.
  • Conveniently, the guard came by shortly after without having been alerted (maid ran off in the opposite direction), so I walked through the light in front of him.  Guard went into full searching mode, stealth score still all zeros.

Why on earth has this never been spotted before??

(I expect any developer is saying "hooray, it's not a regression!")

Edited by Araneidae
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Well it would be great to have this fixed in 2.10.

The other problem is that grayman is no longer with us so it is difficult to address this type of issue since it touches a lot of his code.

I suspect that this is due to changes made to give players a "grace period" when spotted so that the scoring and chase processes aren't so brutally difficult. We probably need to do better at checking how close the AI is for these grace periods.

Does the problem happen without the stealth add-on ?

Eg. Does your final stealth score reflect no alerts with the same replication ?

Are there other missions where this happens?

Eg. Perhaps the AI defs have been customized in this mission somehow?

@stgatilov @Dragool @STiFU ?

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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I can confirm that there is a problem. I tested it on The Bakery Shop too, and weird enough, when the maid does not see you but just hears something the AISuspicious score goes up, only when she really does see you there is no change. So the problem is with PlayerSeen!

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22 minutes ago, nbohr1more said:

The other problem is that grayman is no longer with us so it is difficult to address this type of issue since it touches a lot of his code.

Yes, by "we" I meant with grayman. It was really a pleasure working with him on this. Well the tasks themselves got frustrating, but it was great working through them with him. I learned a lot about coding from him, and he did so much for us under the hood. Another reason he's really missed.

I believe the original code might have been set up by Greebo, then iirc Fidcal did the first version (when the score was subtractive, so almost everybody got "0" almost every time), then I edited that to make it additive, then grayman fixed up a lot of the bugs like the cascades, and I just chat with him about how a few things might best be done. It's gone through a lot of hands. But grayman could have probably followed what it does best.

The way you're describing it now sounds like it's not a problem with the score per se (I don't think it's been changed in a while anyway) but the way the alert system itself works though. But I don't really know offhand what it could be.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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11 minutes ago, wesp5 said:

So the problem is with PlayerSeen!

Yes, that's my experience too.  The merest tap on the floorboards and "huh" and up goes the score.

I think checking by distance isn't the right way forward, instead if at all possible keep track of provenance.  After all, if a guard spots me half way across the map and goes into alert mode ... he saw me.

This issue definitely happens with other missions: can confirm with The Accountant 1, and I first noticed an alarmed guard with zero score when playing the first arena of Requiem.  I'd be astonished if the AI has been touched in The Bakery Job, it's such a minimal and simple mission.

Will be slightly tricky to be certain without the stealth addin, but will give it a go.  Guess I'll dance in front of the maid and then noclip/notarget to exit the map (have to go fetch the goal item in this map), and if that's a zero score hope that'll be a good enough confirmation.

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45 minutes ago, nbohr1more said:

Does the problem happen without the stealth add-on ?

Can confirm the stealth add-on makes no difference.  I exposed myself to the maid, she went into full panic and alerted the guard; I then used `notarget` to complete the mission, completed with perfect zero stealth score.  This was with the latest beta.

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4 minutes ago, stgatilov said:

Sounds like this issue: 5286

Not sure why guard alert does not count.
Maybe getting alerted from another person does not count "by design"?

Don't think that's it, because I've also verified that the guard can become fully alerted without a stealth score.  It looks like I have to fairly briefly walk through his field of view: long enough to see me, but I guess by the time he's gone into full alert mode I'm invisible?

Bit harder to do without the addon, so unless I need to I won't ... and it's easy for anybody else to verify now!

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