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29 minutes ago, Abusimplea said:

even in missions where the author added "fake SSAO" on some edges

I guess mission authors should refrain from adding these grime decals now that we finally have SSAO.

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beta208-07 has been released. The list of changes is provided in its usual place. Remember that you must download tdm_mirrors.txt again from the link in the original post before running tdm_update

beta208-06 has been released. The list of changes is provided in its usual place. Remember that you must download tdm_mirrors.txt again from the link in the original post before running tdm_update

[Forgive me if this is the wrong place for this discussion.]   I've been beta testing two new FMs: JackFarmer's Hidden Hands: The Last Citadel, and The Painter's Wife. They are both large miss

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4 hours ago, STiFU said:

I guess mission authors should refrain from adding these grime decals now that we finally have SSAO.

That kinda depends, AO is a generic effect and as such it won't replace dirt accumulation, water stains, etc.

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2 hours ago, peter_spy said:

That kinda depends, AO is a generic effect and as such it won't replace dirt accumulation, water stains, etc.

Sure! I was just getting at the Fake-AO decals. I've seen people use such decals on every step of a staircase. That's stuff we probably won't need anymore.

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5 hours ago, STiFU said:

Sure! I was just getting at the Fake-AO decals. I've seen people use such decals on every step of a staircase. That's stuff we probably won't need anymore.

For stuff like geometry corners I don't think spending time on fake AO is now a good idea, large patch's of grime/dirt yes but small fake AO will just get superseded by the AO darkening.

Btw AO is a high end effect like you know and it will take a percentage of performance away from people, depending on the card it could be considerable and they will have to turn the effect off, so if you remove the hand made AO and the SAO, they will get less graphical fidelity, is a trade off that imo you guys have to think about.   

Edited by HMart
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1 hour ago, STiFU said:

I've seen people use such decals on every step of a staircase. That's stuff we probably won't need anymore.

Oh, absolutely, that's a bad idea in general, as it could increase drawcall count quite substantially.

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47 minutes ago, lowenz said:

I've seen it, but there's only an implementation for DX12, and given the sheer size of the shader file, that would be a monumental task to port :) Also, it's using compute shaders, which we don't (yet) support in the engine. That's also what stopped me from using Intel's ASSAO, which seems conceptually similar, and going for the older, but simpler SAO.

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48 minutes ago, lowenz said:

The current AO even being based on Nvidia code, imo runs reasonably well on my AMD gpu (RX 570X), I bet is not running as fast as it could, for obvious reasons but again runs well enough "in my case".

Also how many here have RDNA based AMD GPU's? I have a GCN based one. 

Cabalistic if it was you that implemented the TDM AO, what was the reason to prefer Nvidias SAO above lets say vendor agnostic Crytek SSAO? Documentation? Performance? Quality?  Just curious. 

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Nvidia's SAO isn't really specific to Nvidia cards. All the techniques it uses are in some way also present in the FidelityFX implementation or Intel's ASSAO, those just add a couple additional advanced optimizations :)

Reasons for SAO: it was well documented, had an OpenGL sample implementation, good license, was reasonably simple to implement in a reasonable amount of code (definitely much less than the afore-mentioned ones!) and offers reasonable quality at reasonable performance - not fully state of the art, but also significantly better than some basic implementations that you often find in tutorials (and which I started with in my first attempt) :)

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Current AO with "Low" setting has the same 10% performance hit on NV and AMD GPUs having maxed out the rest (Soft Shadows on Medium, no Bloom).

Edited by lowenz
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Task is not so much to see what no one has yet seen but to think what nobody has yet thought about that which everybody see. - E.S.

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Speaking about performance, any improvements for shadow maps for 2.08? Not sure if you did any comparison profiling with stencil vs. shadowmaps, but on my rigs stencil maps are much less taxing for both CPUs and GPUs. I think CPUs in particular are doing a better and better job with stencil shadows, with subsequent generations.

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I think we'll have to consider shadow maps an ongoing experimental feature.

One significant hurdle (in my opinion) is that not all light types are implemented in shadow maps, which means that the engine will fall back to stencil for some lights and thus still generates stencil shadow volumes even when you select shadow maps. So in a way, you currently get the worst of both worlds with shadow maps :D

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Move them to the experimental section, no problem!

And yes, they're taxing the system and it's why I've accepted to set them to "medium" with the minimum radius (0.5).

It'a a good choice for everybody with a recent but not "top of the line" system, together with SSAO set to "low".

These 2 can really gracefully soften the scene.

Edited by lowenz

Task is not so much to see what no one has yet seen but to think what nobody has yet thought about that which everybody see. - E.S.

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1 hour ago, lowenz said:

These 2 can really gracefully soften the scene.

Stencil shadows + soft shadows (low) + SSAO (low) do the same, but at overall lower performance cost. At least that's what I'm seeing on several different hardware configs. Reasons stated by Cabalistic are one thing, but I suspect there are other factors like how cascading or render distance is set up :) 

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I don't know if this beta test is an opportunity to look at this, but there seems to have been a map breaking regression, probably introduced in 2.07, which makes it impossible to complete The King of Diamonds without resorting to noclip.  Specifically, there is an key character in an upstairs room who is scripted to wake up and walk out of the room at some point in play, but he is stuck against the chair he is trying to walk away from.  Looking at reports of this problem in the forum (and on a posted playthrough on youtube) I'm pretty sure this started around the time 2.07 came out.

Is there any way this bug can be fixed?

Edited by Araneidae
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1 minute ago, Araneidae said:

I don't know if this beta test is an opportunity to look at this, but there seems to have been a map breaking regression, probably introduced in 2.07, which makes it impossible to complete The King of Diamonds without resorting to noclip.  Specifically, there is an key character in an upstairs room who is scripted to wake up and walk out of the room at some point in play, but he is stuck against the chair he is trying to walk away from.  Looking at reports of this problem in the form (and on a posted playthrough on youtube) I'm pretty sure this started around the time 2.07 came out.

Is there any way this bug can be fixed?

Chair and Bed navigation have been improved in 2.08. Are you able to reproduce this in 2.08 beta?

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Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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2 hours ago, nbohr1more said:

Chair and Bed navigation have been improved in 2.08. Are you able to reproduce this in 2.08 beta?

Yes, that's why I mentioned it here!  Do you want a save game?

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3 minutes ago, Araneidae said:

Yes, that's why I mentioned it here!  Do you want a save game?

Yes please. Also, does this happen with both capped and uncapped FPS?

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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43 minutes ago, nbohr1more said:

Yes please. Also, does this happen with both capped and uncapped FPS?

That's a nuisance.  I can only upload 0.5MB, and the save game, even after compression, is 2.3MB.  I don't have anywhere else to put it, I'm afraid.

Also, I'm afraid I don't know how to set FPS capping, unless you're referring to the Vsync option, in which case I had it enabled and unsetting it didn't seem to make much difference.

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21 hours ago, cabalistic said:

Nvidia's SAO isn't really specific to Nvidia cards. All the techniques it uses are in some way also present in the FidelityFX implementation or Intel's ASSAO, those just add a couple additional advanced optimizations :)

Reasons for SAO: it was well documented, had an OpenGL sample implementation, good license, was reasonably simple to implement in a reasonable amount of code (definitely much less than the afore-mentioned ones!) and offers reasonable quality at reasonable performance - not fully state of the art, but also significantly better than some basic implementations that you often find in tutorials (and which I started with in my first attempt) :)

Thanks for the explanation I see your point I would do the same. :)  

9 hours ago, cabalistic said:

I think we'll have to consider shadow maps an ongoing experimental feature.

One significant hurdle (in my opinion) is that not all light types are implemented in shadow maps, which means that the engine will fall back to stencil for some lights and thus still generates stencil shadow volumes even when you select shadow maps. So in a way, you currently get the worst of both worlds with shadow maps :D

 Then it was very well done because I don't remember ever realizing that some shadows were stencil based!

Btw IMO we can't fully compare stencil performance, to shadow maps, why, because shadow maps can cast shadows that stencil can't, like from alpha mapped textures, right now that is not much of a reason, because official alpha textures have the "noshadows" keyword but someone can make custom materials for their missions. So maps will always run a little slower than stencil even if max optimized. 

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21 minutes ago, Araneidae said:

That's a nuisance.  I can only upload 0.5MB, and the save game, even after compression, is 2.3MB.  I don't have anywhere else to put it, I'm afraid.

You do have a GMAIL account, right?

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4 hours ago, Araneidae said:

there seems to have been a map breaking regression, probably introduced in 2.07, which makes it impossible to complete The King of Diamonds without resorting to noclip.

Did you have similar problem on 2.05 or 2.06? Usually it's a bad approach to fix mapping bugs by changing something in the engine. Some maps have mappers' errors left that manifest much later in conjunction with features that were added correctly. It's better to check the map before you ask to change something in the engine.

Edited by peter_spy
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@nbohr1more

@stgatilov

You guys were right, after updating to 2.08 it looks like...

1.  ...crashes during WIP loading have vanished and

2. ...in game crashes in WIP area with fire elementals have vanished as well!

Thank you, after adding final voice lines in the next days I will start beta/optimizing!

Jack

P.S. ....love the new swimming system, although I think I will have to add a few more breath potions as the lake is very, very deep! :)

P.P.S. ...and I have the feeling, that everything runs much faster now!

 

 

Edited by JackFarmer
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