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External art assets licensing


vozka

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I have a few questions regarding the license of TDM assets in relation to using 3rd party roalty free models and textures (either as is or for derived works).

I understand that TDM assets use the CC-BY-NC-SA license.

This trivally means that for creating these assets we can use anything licensed under the same license, CC-BY-NC-SA, or anything under CC0.

What about other CC licenses? From this page in the CC FAQ I understand that we can also use CC-BY and CC-BY-NC, as those can be relicensed under CC-BY-NC-SA. So far so good.

 

I have noticed, though, that most asset libraries today (free or paid) use some form of "roalty-free license" or "asset license" which allow any type of usage without attribution, even commercial, except redistributing them in their original form. This includes some of the asset libraries that have been link around this forum as usable. This licensing is most prevalent with models, but for example textures.com also uses a similar license. This is from their terms of use: 

Quote
6.3

 

You are not permitted to:

 

(a)
 
sell or distribute any Content (modified or not) by themselves or in a texture pack, material, shader, scale modelling papers (pre-printed or digital), scrapbooking pack;

While textures.com explicitly allow using their textures in games in general, this section seems to be incompatible with CC-BY-NC-SA as CC in my understanding explicitly allows redistribution. But while trying to research this licensing issue I noticed that textures.com was used for assets at least in the past.

So how does this work? Are there exceptions where TDM assets can use a different license? Or is textures.com a relic of the past from when licensing wasn't enforced? 

If it's the first case, there would be other potential sources of assets that could be adapted for TDM. For example I'm a paid subscriber to blenderkit.com, a library with almost 2000 models which can be used under a license that doesn't allow redistribution and some of them probably could be used in TDM's setting. They're mostly hipoly with PBR materials, so retopology and some material work would have to be done, but that's less work than creating models from scratch and I want to try to do it anyway.

So what's the situation?

Edited by vozka
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This is how it works:

 

NC == sell  (we don't sell or do make any money from TDM)

 

SA ==

or distribute any Content (modified or not) by themselves or in a texture pack, material, shader, scale modelling papers (pre-printed or digital), scrapbooking pack;

 

The license from textures.com says you are allowed to share (distribute) within the context of a "full game asset with attribution" (model, map, etc).

TDM distributes (shares) textures in the form of a full game package with attribution.

Share Alike means that other projects can use TDM "game assets" and share them too as long as they also "follow these rules" (Alike).

 

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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6 hours ago, nbohr1more said:

Share Alike means that other projects can use TDM "game assets" and share them too as long as they also "follow these rules" (Alike).

But according to CC they can redistribute them by themselves. They have to give attribution, do it noncomercially and with the same license, but as long as the assets themselves are licensed as CC, I don't see any reason why they couldn't be shared on their own outside the game. CC doesn't limit anything like this.

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https://www.textures.com/faq-license.html#anchor-games says 'you need to release content that has been created using our materials under a closed source license'. I tried googling for "textures.com" site:thedarkmod.com and out of the results I got, the only one that clearly seemed to identify a texture as coming from textures.com was in R Soul's red button. That attribution is also in the readme packaged with it, which doesn't otherwise identify any licence, open or closed.

Some things I'm repeatedly thinking about...

 

- louder scream when you're dying

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13 hours ago, nbohr1more said:

Yes, that is exactly what "SA" \ Share Alike means. You must "share" in the "exact same way" (alike).

I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing here, but share alike is not related to the way the assets are distributed in TDM. Share alike is only related to the license used, it only means that anybody who uses TDM assets has to share them under the same license. That's how it's explained here: https://wiki.creativecommons.org/wiki/Share_Alike

This explicitly allows redistribution "as is". 

11 hours ago, VanishedOne said:

https://www.textures.com/faq-license.html#anchor-games says 'you need to release content that has been created using our materials under a closed source license'. I tried googling for "textures.com" site:thedarkmod.com and out of the results I got, the only one that clearly seemed to identify a texture as coming from textures.com was in R Soul's red button. That attribution is also in the readme packaged with it, which doesn't otherwise identify any licence, open or closed.

A better search term would be "cgtextures" since that's what the site was previously called. This gives me 59 results and some of them seem to have been used as assets although I have not checked too deeply. It certainly seems like using cgtextures was encouraged by some people and in wiki tutorials as well.

 

EDIT: The question also is "has the cgtextures license always been limiting in this way?", which I cannot answer fully since waybackmachine is painfully slow for me today, but according to this thread it's been like that since at least 2012.

Edited by vozka
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On 3/27/2020 at 4:46 AM, nbohr1more said:

SA ==

or distribute any Content (modified or not) by themselves or in a texture pack, material, shader, scale modelling papers (pre-printed or digital), scrapbooking pack;

Hang on, are you saying that the CC-SA license used to distribute TDM assets is not in fact the regular Creative Commons license, but a sort of hybrid "Creative Commons + additional restrictions imposed by third party texture libraries"? That is certainly news to me.

My understanding is that the "sharealike" terms in a CC license are a simple copyleft-style provision that ensure that recipients cannot integrate the content into a closed-source product. If you receive assets under a CC-SA license, you must allow the content to be redistributable under the same CC license. The "SA" section is not simply a placeholder for a list of other restrictions that are not mentioned by, or compatible with, the actual Creative Commons terms.

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Right. This is what CC themselves clarify in the CC wiki I linked above.

It means that TDM probably uses a nontrivial number of textures that infringe on cgtextures license.

I have found in several threads that people noticed the clause that forbids redistribution as early as 2010, but they wrongly concluded that as long as the textures are distributed as a part of a level (=not a texture pack), it's OK to use them. This is not true, as long as the license is CC, the way in which they are packed is irrelevant. The only way to make it right would be to use a nonfree license.

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1 hour ago, vozka said:

I have found in several threads that people noticed the clause that forbids redistribution as early as 2010, but they wrongly concluded that as long as the textures are distributed as a part of a level (=not a texture pack), it's OK to use them.

I do remember having at least one discussion about this kind of issue, and I was concerned about it back then. I think somebody wanted to use a library of royalty-free sounds which could be used provided you "integrated" them into some larger production (i.e. by mixing them into a song or a movie soundtrack), but specifically prohibited distributing the sounds by themselves.

But we are distributing assets by themselves, because we literally have a subversion repository from which people can download individual assets and use them however they like. And even if we only distributed assets as part of a complete level, it is trivial for people to extract individual assets from the mission archive, and the CC-BY-SA license explicitly allows them to do so provided they maintain the same CC-BY-SA terms when redistributing.

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1 hour ago, OrbWeaver said:

But we are distributing assets by themselves, because we literally have a subversion repository from which people can download individual assets and use them however they like. And even if we only distributed assets as part of a complete level, it is trivial for people to extract individual assets from the mission archive, and the CC-BY-SA license explicitly allows them to do so provided they maintain the same CC-BY-SA terms when redistributing.

I asked the owner of a different asset library (that I normally use for other work) about this situation and while he wasn't as specific as I'd like (he probably doesn't care about games, their primary use is archviz), what I got from his reply is that only the license is an issue. As long as the license prohibits redistribution and any use outside of the game, the fact that anybody can extract art from the game does not matter. Different stores might see it differently of course, the terms of use vary and some are quite vaguely written.

Edited by vozka
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1 hour ago, OrbWeaver said:

But we are distributing assets by themselves, because we literally have a subversion repository from which people can download individual assets and use them however they like.

Is the assets SVN public now? I knew the glprogs had been made part of the public source code at https://svn.thedarkmod.com/publicsvn/darkmod_src/trunk/ but hadn't heard of any opening of the assets SVN.

Some things I'm repeatedly thinking about...

 

- louder scream when you're dying

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1 hour ago, VanishedOne said:

Is the assets SVN public now? I knew the glprogs had been made part of the public source code at https://svn.thedarkmod.com/publicsvn/darkmod_src/trunk/ but hadn't heard of any opening of the assets SVN.

Again, this does not matter as long as the assets are published under creative commons and accessible in any way, even just inside the game. 

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18 minutes ago, vozka said:

Again, this does not matter as long as the assets are published under creative commons and accessible in any way, even just inside the game. 

Thanks, but I wasn't asking as a question of law, I was asking because I wanted to know the answer.

Some things I'm repeatedly thinking about...

 

- louder scream when you're dying

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  • 1 month later...

The assets in the SVN (their authored features) are available packaged in the game for the purposes of the license. That makes them pubicly released.

The asset folder in the SVN requires private SVN access, so it's not publicly accessible AFAIK.

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What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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  • 3 years later...

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but what is the conclusion here?  I'm particularly asking about textures.com, because in my latest FM (WIP) I've used tons of textures from there.  When I first looked at it, I had concluded that it was OK to use them, but now I'm second guessing that because of this (also mentioned above):

Please note that it is not allowed to release our images under Open Source licenses (even when the materials are modified). If you are working on an game that is released under an Open Source license, you need to release content that has been created using our materials under a closed source license.

 

However, this here make me think it might be OK?  From https://www.textures.com/support/faq-license#3d-model

CAN I USE THE MATERIALS ON A 3D MODEL OR SCENE OR VIDEO GAME LEVEL WHICH I WILL OFFER OR SELL ON A DIGITAL MARKETPLACE?
Regular textures may be bundled with 3D models, scenes or video game levels under the following conditions:

you have customized the materials for the 3D model, scene or game level,
all materials are actually used on the 3D model, in the scene or game level
you are selling the model and materials in one package.
In other words: do not use bundling as a loophole to sell a texture or material pack.

Please add the following text in the documentation accompanying the model:
"One or more textures bundled with this project have been created with images from Textures.com. These images may not be redistributed by default. Please visit www.textures.com for more information."

IMPORTANT: the exception to this is any content in the Special Content categories: 3D Scans, 3D Scans Atlas, 3D Objects, 3D Foliage, Substance, PBR Materials, Decals, HDR Spheres, HDR Skies, Graphic Designs and 3D Ornaments. The materials in these categories may NOT be bundled with 3D models or scenes. This even applies when you modify the materials: modification does not mean you are allowed to bundle these types of materials.

Again I'm specifically talking about using these are part of a fan mission, not the core game.  To satisfy the conditions above, I will:

  • customisation: all textures have been converted to different formats (.dds and .tga) or resized
  • I won't include any textures in the .pk4 that aren't included in the mission
  • the FM will be bundled into a single .pk4 package (and I'm obviously not selling it).
  • I'm only using the 'regular textures', not PBR or 3D materials.
  • I will include the text 'One ore more textures...' in the FM readme.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Frost_Salamander said:

the FM will be bundled into a single .pk4 package

IMO points like that assume that content is put in an encrypted / binarized package that can't be easily opened with common software (see Unreal or Unity asset packages, etc.). PK4 is a plain zip archive and everyone knows how to open it.

Edit: I had similar problem in the past, with a piano music composer who allowed some of his works to be used in video games, free of charge, but on the condition it was part of a larger file where you couldn't access his audio files.

Edited by peter_spy
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1 hour ago, peter_spy said:

IMO points like that assume that content is put in an encrypted / binarized package that can't be easily opened with common software (see Unreal or Unity asset packages, etc.). PK4 is a plain zip archive and everyone knows how to open it.

Edit: I had similar problem in the past, with a piano music composer who allowed some of his works to be used in video games, free of charge, but on the condition it was part of a larger file where you couldn't access his audio files.

OK but that sounds a bit like a special case where that requirement was explicitly made known up front?  There is nothing in that textures.com FAQ that specifies a requirement like that.  There is no way I would have assumed that myself.

I think unless someone pipes up and says it's a hard no for whatever reason, I will assume it's OK.

I suppose the other thing is a license for the FM itself.  Is it an option to include a different one than that used for TDM?

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46 minutes ago, Frost_Salamander said:

OK but that sounds a bit like a special case where that requirement was explicitly made known up front?  There is nothing in that textures.com FAQ that specifies a requirement like that.

It would probably be the best to ask someone from textures.com on that. I couldn't, in all good conscience, call pk4 a package, in the same sense it's used in context of popular game engines, so I ended up not using those audio tracks.

Also:

3 hours ago, Frost_Salamander said:
Please add the following text in the documentation accompanying the model:
"One or more textures bundled with this project have been created with images from Textures.com. These images may not be redistributed by default. Please visit www.textures.com for more information."

That can be a can of worms of all sorts. Does it mean the mission can't be hosted on TDM's servers, or textures and materials can't be used in other TDM FMs? That license is rather specific to 3d models, not video game mods / levels. Maybe that's the most common use case they deal with.

46 minutes ago, Frost_Salamander said:

I suppose the other thing is a license for the FM itself.  Is it an option to include a different one than that used for TDM?

Yes, there is. The GPL license is mandatory for game code. You can share your assets under any license you want, copyright included. If you want your assets to make their way to the core mod though, you'll need to share them under CC0 license or similar.

Edited by peter_spy
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1 hour ago, peter_spy said:

It would probably be the best to ask someone from textures.com on that.

I've reached out to them - hopefully they can give us a straight answer.

1 hour ago, peter_spy said:

That can be a can of worms of all sorts. Does it mean the mission can't be hosted on TDM's servers, or textures and materials can't be used in other TDM FMs? That license is rather specific to 3d models, not video game mods / levels. Maybe that's the most common use case they deal with.

It does say 'VIDEO GAME LEVEL' in that section title, although you're right models are probably the main use case.

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1 hour ago, Frost_Salamander said:

I've reached out to them - hopefully they can give us a straight answer.

Nice. FWIW, I saw Black Parade crediting textures.com in their credits.avi. Not sure whether they've read the license, but Thief doesn't even use zip packages for content, just for storage. The whole stuff gets extracted during installation into a dedicated folder and it's fully accessible.

Edited by peter_spy
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@Frost_Salamander

Another interpretation is that a mission (FM) is a "game".

Quote

The "current game" may be the same as the base game, or it may be the name of another directory under the paths that should be searched for files before looking in the base game. The game directory is set with "+set fs_mod myaddon" on the command line. This is the basis for addons.

https://github.com/stgatilov/darkmod_src/blob/64f3610296005112109faeb6089c9690c5527085/framework/FileSystem.cpp#LL77C1-L80C22

For example, Resurrection of Evil for Doom 3 is a game and can be run with the "+set fs_game d3xp" option. TDM is based on Doom 3 but has since deviated from Doom 3 options, but I think the same definition can hold. Mission authors can tweak and modify their mission to create unique gameplay experiences and mechanics, thus making their own game. TDM is the game engine that the game (FM) is run on.

 

Quote

Can I use the materials in my own (commercial) video game?

Yes, it's allowed to use our materials to create your own free or commercial video game for PC, for consoles, or mobile devices. This is also allowed for materials you have downloaded with a Free account.

It does not matter how the game is distributed or sold (for example through direct sales, Steam, the Apple Store or Google Play). When using the materials in your own computer game, you do not need to mention our website as the source of the materials.

Please note that it is not allowed to release our images under Open Source licenses (even when the materials are modified). If you are working on an game that is released under an Open Source license, you need to release content that has been created using our materials under a closed source license.

https://www.textures.com/support/faq-license

So, here it looks like you are free to use them in your own game.

The "Open Source" license for images refers to Creative Commons licenses, I imagine, rather than TDM code being open source. In the mission readme.txt file, it sounds like those images need to be listed under a different license than a Creative Commons license. Also, those textures could be in their own directory with a LICENSE.txt file at its root directory, explaining that it is not a Creative Commons license.

 

That said, I'm not a lawyer, and it's good to reach out to the Textures.com folks about this. I just thought I'd share my interpretation in case it helps with communication with them. I hope you get some good answers!

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@Frost_SalamanderIf it is helpful, I have express permission from Marcel of cgtextures/textures.com that packaging his assets in a .pk4 is acceptable and at the time he was fine with packaging them in TDM projects:

Also you mentioned not being able to use your images for just textures - do I take it this means you can use them as textures and within materials in the context of a mod - you just can’t package and release them as only textures correct?

Lastly idtech 4 is an engine old enough it’s package files (.pk4s) can be opened with any archive software (would be difficult to mod otherwise). I will include your license information in my documentation if I ever get to release, but is there any special consideration I should give to packaging assets derived from your images in older game engines which lack modern security?

Quote

 

That's correct, but this is only allowed for the regular photo textures, not the special content.
If a texture can be extracted from an pk4s file that's ok.

 

The main thing I hope is to just ensure you include his license and that you do not distribute the textures themselves outside of the context of the fm. There is a bit of a slippery slope in that terms on the site have changed a lot over the years. The current licensing model finally seems to state that the photo ref textures are ok to use in "Scenes" for example, but for many years it stated it was only acceptable to use them specially in models.

There are many many assets in core which are from this site, which were licensed under these much older terms:

https://web.archive.org/web/20100818122748/http://cgtextures.com/content.php?action=license

Ultimately if something is licensed, the terms can change. So buyer beware.

Edited by Wellingtoncrab
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-=  IRIS  =-    ♦    = SLL =

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53 minutes ago, Wellingtoncrab said:

There are many many assets in core which are from this site, which were licensed under these much older terms:

https://web.archive.org/web/20100818122748/http://cgtextures.com/content.php?action=license

IIRC, unless you have written confirmation on that, and specific textures that were licensed on the old terms, it's not a thing. You are always bound by the current version of the EULA displayed on the website, and it's your obligation to keep up with the changes.

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24 minutes ago, peter_spy said:

IIRC, unless you have written confirmation on that, and specific textures that were licensed on the old terms, it's not a thing. You are always bound by the current version of the EULA displayed on the website, and it's your obligation to keep up with the changes.

Exactly the point that is made in my post:

1 hour ago, Wellingtoncrab said:

 

Ultimately if something is licensed, the terms can change. So buyer beware.

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-=  IRIS  =-    ♦    = SLL =

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Right, I forgot that's also a reason why TDM has every single texture from cgtextures listed in license.txt. But, according to current EULA, that might not be enough:

Quote

Please note that it is not allowed to release our images under Open Source licenses (even when the materials are modified). If you are working on an game that is released under an Open Source license, you need to release content that has been created using our materials under a closed source license.

 

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