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How can we help the Uyghur?


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Although I am somewhat apprehensive of Islam due to its founders immoral behavior and some rather backwards beliefs, the treatment of the Uyghurs by the Chinese has been horrendous, including forced sterilization, murder of newborns and forced abortions, and slave labor. It also doesn't help Disney's live-action Mulan actively gave props to a concentration camp director in the credits of the film. So what I'm asking is, does anybody have any ideas for how we can help the Uyghurs? I know a bit of 4chan lingo, despite leaning left, does anybody else have any ideas we can pool together to get some "weaponized autism" flowing?

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I'm increasingly of the opinion that Beijing needs a nuke or two dropped on it, before it drags this entire planet (in its outright delusional attempt to control it) into war, depression, and worse...

 

I wish I was joking.

Edited by LDAsh
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Well, if NATO didn't bomb countries with oil and gas they would have had infinitely more credibility in expressing "thoughts and prayers" on such topics.

"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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11 hours ago, LDAsh said:

I'm increasingly of the opinion that Beijing needs a nuke or two dropped on it, before it drags this entire planet (in its outright delusional attempt to control it) into war, depression, and worse...

 

I wish I was joking.

I think that's a little too far. Simply killing the heads of the CCP would suffice. No need to start slaughtering civvies.

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7 hours ago, Kurshok said:

I think that's a little too far. Simply killing the heads of the CCP would suffice. No need to start slaughtering civvies.

I agree it's going too far, but in this case it's not a simple matter of assassinating one or two old toads.  The brainwashing has run wide, deep and for a very very long time.  Something outrageously dramatic is needed and perhaps some (or much) collateral damage is justified, to turn the entire "empire" completely on its head.

If you want to talk about the dead bodies of 'civvies', well, China is a great place to start.  These bureaucrats have the least regard for the value of human life.  ALL life, except theirs.

Just to clarify - I have been living in Hong Kong for years now and care deeply about these people, and this is still my stance on the issue.

 

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1 hour ago, LDAsh said:

I agree it's going too far, but in this case it's not a simple matter of assassinating one or two old toads.  The brainwashing has run wide, deep and for a very very long time.  Something outrageously dramatic is needed and perhaps some (or much) collateral damage is justified, to turn the entire "empire" completely on its head.

If you want to talk about the dead bodies of 'civvies', well, China is a great place to start.  These bureaucrats have the least regard for the value of human life.  ALL life, except theirs.

Just to clarify - I have been living in Hong Kong for years now and care deeply about these people, and this is still my stance on the issue.

 

Don't let the CCP make you TOO radical on the issue. They'd love to use "pro-nuking China treasonous dogs" as a way to justify Hong Kong oppression. It's best to just off the "old toads" and instill a moderate into the party head who will let Hong Kong secede and stop the genocide.

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Well that sounds lovely Kurshok, but, how practical do you think that is?  The problems with the CCP really is a problem with broader Chinese culture, unfortunately.

 

What I'm talking about isn't as radical as it is practical.  It's terrible, but letting them conquer Taiwan and setting the stage for complete domination of the pacific and the entire hemisphere is much much worse.  Half the planet today, the rest of the planet tomorrow.

 

If you don't want to take a stand, and you have any children, all I can say is - now might be a good time to begin them on lessons in Mandarin, so in the future they will be able to understand the orders given by their masters.  If you think that's an exaggeration, you haven't been following history.

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48 minutes ago, LDAsh said:

Well that sounds lovely Kurshok, but, how practical do you think that is?  The problems with the CCP really is a problem with broader Chinese culture, unfortunately.

 

What I'm talking about isn't as radical as it is practical.  It's terrible, but letting them conquer Taiwan and setting the stage for complete domination of the pacific and the entire hemisphere is much much worse.  Half the planet today, the rest of the planet tomorrow.

 

If you don't want to take a stand, and you have any children, all I can say is - now might be a good time to begin them on lessons in Mandarin, so in the future they will be able to understand the orders given by their masters.  If you think that's an exaggeration, you haven't been following history.

America and Taiwan are allies. We won't abandon them.

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Trump would be all too happy to abandon Taiwan, and he's already abandoned Hong Kong, but hopefully his days are numbered.

As for the Uyghurs, I wrote a report about their plight. It's on such a massive scale, comparable in scale to the Nazi holocaust in the sense it involves millions of people affected in one way or another, the detentions are over a year and basically by quota (at least 1/3 people detained without question), incredibly abusive, and even if you aren't detained there are 100,000s of cameras and phone scanners and 10,000s of homestay security officers that literally live in their houses and "marry" the daughters (i.e., a state sponsored rape and race-cleansing campaign), etc. When problems are on such vast scales and multiple levels, you have to address them at a vast scale and multiple levels.

Pressure on the government I doubt would work. Educating the population isn't likely to work. Facilitating the escape of the population to other countries can only go so far. Targeted economic sanctions might help pressure the forced labor part, but the problem is the forced labor is so tightly integrated with the broader Chinese supply chain economy that it's almost impossible to tease out the Xinjiang contribution from the entire Chinese export market, and I doubt any country is going to just completely cut itself off from the Chinese market. Educating foreigners about it would be good for playing the long diplomatic game though. It's a problem from hell. I wish we could do more.

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What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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4 hours ago, demagogue said:

Facilitating the escape of the population to other countries can only go so far.

Dissenting illegal migrants are overlooked. "Exporting" democracy is unrealistic against a nuclear power. Merely reporting on Uyghurs without accepting more refugees is nothing more than a propaganda political stunt. Nothing in common with human rights. Too bad Western countries adopted the "ostrich head in the sand" approach when it comes to immigrant policies. American and Australian policies are particularly evil.

Evil prevails.

"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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9 hours ago, Anderson said:

Dissenting illegal migrants are overlooked. "Exporting" democracy is unrealistic against a nuclear power. Merely reporting on Uyghurs without accepting more refugees is nothing more than a propaganda political stunt. Nothing in common with human rights. Too bad Western countries adopted the "ostrich head in the sand" approach when it comes to immigrant policies. American and Australian policies are particularly evil.

Evil prevails.

Not for long, at least depending on the results of the 2020 election.

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The problem with communism is not that it is evil but that it is far to easy for some ruthless people to exploit (see above examples).

Democrazy (not a typo :P) also has its flaws and while i myself a subscribe to it i cant overlook its shortcommings which have been made all the more visible in the later years.

Liberalism well the idea sounds sympatic but has the same flaw as communism it is to easy for people with no consience to turn it into a stinking pile of crap where liberty is only for the wealthy.

We need an upgrade PRONTO!.

In all honesty it is time for some change, the world as it is is fragile and we stomp about on it as giants on an anthill.

Warning number one has allready landed way before corona, but we dont seem to get the message.

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4 hours ago, revelator said:

The problem with communism is not that it is evil but that it is far to easy for some ruthless people to exploit (see above examples).

Democrazy (not a typo :P) also has its flaws and while i myself a subscribe to it i cant overlook its shortcommings which have been made all the more visible in the later years.

Liberalism well the idea sounds sympatic but has the same flaw as communism it is to easy for people with no consience to turn it into a stinking pile of crap where liberty is only for the wealthy.

We need an upgrade PRONTO!.

In all honesty it is time for some change, the world as it is is fragile and we stomp about on it as giants on an anthill.

Warning number one has allready landed way before corona, but we dont seem to get the message.

I wish the people in power would do more to stand up against authoritarians and stand up for the little guy. In some ways the world gets better over time, but it seems the same well-known repeat offenders of human rights still get away to repeat their crimes again and again. Radical Islamic religious leaders, Vladimir Putin, Kim Jong Un, Xi Jinping, I wish someone would just fund their own secular "terrorist" group to have them all fucking assassinated, and the U.N. could handle the power vacuum.

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It will come but how do we make sure the same a..beep dont fuck up things again ?, that is the problem they will face (im probably to old to see that day).

Atleast there is a growing concensus amongst the avarage man that we cant keep just using the ressources of the world faster than they can grow back, as for the policy its the same bullshit just covered in promises they will newer keep (to scared to loose voters) and they probably will, but it has to stop or things will end very badly.

It will get expensive as hell to put the genie back in the bottle and science is not going to rescue us, we have to do that ourself.

As for the victims of said governments i can only say what if anything do they get out of treating people that way ?,

we are all different but we all share the same dna, mixed heritages nailed that in iron so long ago it should'nt be any surprise.

Is it religion or politics ? who the F... cares, if i believe in anything it shouldnt matter to my neighbour as long as i dont try to convert him / her, and i seen nothing of the sort

from either of those groups.  So my guess is its because they can and these groups have something the others want.

Im from denmark, and the avarage dane does have quite some misgivings about our own politicians supporting governments like that and then trying to cover it up as was shown the last time china visited and several protesters where illegally arrested. The shitshow resulting from that move is still running here and blame gets thrown around 

like last years rotten fruit. 

 

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I don't think we can help the Uyghur, at least nothing directly on an individual level. The only thing that will help is if China is less powerful/less influential and hence less capable of such barbarism. At an individual level that basically means buying fewer China-made products where possible. It's actually beneficial even beyond the treatment of the Uyghur to have China brought down several pegs, given they have so many fingers in so many pies around the world. But it's kinda like the battle of climate change - if you just look at the end result it's easy to become apathetic and feel like the problem is too big to counter (and maybe it is). As an individual you have no influence at that level, so just focus on the influence you do have and make the changes there, and maybe you'll convince others to act in a similar manner. Even if it ultimately doesn't help, you did what you could and can feel less culpable.

We're told as kids that the world is fair and our stories promote the idea of good vs evil and good always winning. That's.... unfortunately not the case. The world doesn't work that way. Some people are just fucked no matter what. But you can at least do your part to make the world a better place, even indirectly.

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A word of warning, Agent Denton. This was a simulated experience; real LAMs will not be so forgiving.

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Japan has a shrinking population, isn't taking in immigrants, its business culture is so conservative and xenophobic they've practically shut themselves out of the global economy, and it blundered itself into the worst liquidity trap and stagflation in history by far, leading to what used to be called the "Lost Decade", but is now more like the Lost 30 years, getting ready for the 4th decade of it.

China on the other hand has a massive slave labor force in combination with an open economy and the largest single market in history by far, they're aggressively forcing themselves into other country's markets with their One Road thing, not to mention a million person military and a government with absolutely control over everything that happens in its borders.

The two aren't really comparable.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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I didn't mean its modern economy, I meant in WWII, the empire's hasty and unconventional attempt at dominating the pacific (for starters).  The consensus back then (from what I know of history) is that they were considered unstoppable, simply because Japan did not play by the same rulebook as everyone else and could not be held accountable by anyone but the spirits of their own ancestors.  International human rights be damned.

Now China is more or less looking at doing the same thing.  For a (the only) country that, to this day, holds a grudge against militant Imperial Japan, it sure does seem to want to follow in its steps.

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So much fear of China, yet they are notorious for failing almost every big war in history. The latest military conflicts China is involved in are some minor local skirmishes with neighbors over small plots of lands. Child's play compared to the megatons upon megatons of innocents suffering from bomb drops in backwater countries thanks to drone strikes, targeted killings and extraordinary renditions all over the world.

This pandemic only confirms that even in civilized countries everybody is left to die alone.

Edited by Anderson

"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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18 hours ago, revelator said:

Well they didnt have A bombs in the past... A problem which also continues to hunt any talk of north korea 😕

Id imagine if it were not so that they would have been in a lot more trouble.

Remember that when North and South Korea were created, none of them were paradise to begin with. Just like Taiwan, South Korea had its fair share of dictatorship albeit not for 40 years but only for a decade. Same abuses like in Communist China or North Korea. Except China and North Korea were and remain dictatorships while the latter were nationalistic dictatorships. Fortunately the tide has changed.

The point is, democracy is not to be taken for granted. Bombs and wars only help to justify bloody senseless violence. Whether in the name of the war of terror against terrorists or anything else like that.

Edited by Anderson

"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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Indeed, i grew up during the cold war. It was not fun times but back then you barely ever heard of any of those two because there was a much bigger threat from two super powers who together had enough firepower to blow up planet earth several times over, then suddenly as the cold war slowly came to a halt these two contries had managed to aquire technologi that ultimately allowed them to keep there status as dictatorships with the threat of massive retaliation in case any one got any funny ideas about removing them from power internally or externally. 

And i agree we cant take democracy for granted even if someone managed to remove those people.

War is indeed hell.

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