Public access to development versions

[MirceaKitsune]

Did anything breaking saves change from the previous dev version? I didn't update yet since I didn't finish a FM I was playing... I disabled the setting that forces you to have the same TDM version to load old saves, but if save compatibility was affected loading would still cause a crash.

Definitely appreciate the improvements for the mission selection menu, which hopefully means not just the download page but also the FM selection screen: An issue for me has always been that once a lot of FM's are installed, it's hard to tell them apart and know what to look for to play something new. An old proposal I remember making was a favorites button to pin FM's you really liked at the top, maybe that will happen too in the future.

[stgatilov]

4 hours ago, MirceaKitsune said:

Did anything breaking saves change from the previous dev version? I didn't update yet since I didn't finish a FM I was playing... I disabled the setting that forces you to have the same TDM version to load old saves, but if save compatibility was affected loading would still cause a crash.

I'd recommend to record which dev build you were playing somewhere, maybe rename savegames directory so that it includes the version. Or simply get a fresh TDM directory for new version until you finish the mission.

I don't think there were savegame format changes.

 

[Amadeus]

14 minutes ago, stgatilov said:

I don't think there were savegame format changes.

 

I don't know if this will affect restoring previous saves, but for bugtracker 6552 I had to write save/restore methods for the new follow_actor spawnargs. These changes show up in the dev17095-10833 build.

[wesp5]

32 minutes ago, stgatilov said:

I don't think there were savegame format changes.

As far as I know savegame format itself isn't needed to make saves not usable, any minor script change will do this...

[MirceaKitsune]

Thanks: The previous one was 10844 which doesn't seem to contain any savegame changes up to 10869, the force-load option seems to have worked fine. Absolutely appreciate the mission menu filters and title sorting option!

Edited September 24 by MirceaKitsune

[stgatilov]

dev17152-10890 is available!

[datiswous]

On 3/4/2024 at 10:10 PM, stgatilov said:

Added TDM version + engine revision in lower-left corner of main menu

I thought you specifically removed this some time ago. Although I think at least it's good vor dev and beta versions.

Edited October 13 by datiswous

[stgatilov]

1 hour ago, datiswous said:

I thought you specifically removed this some time ago. Although I think at least it's good vor dev and beta versions.

I believe I removed it because:

1. It showed only the version, not the SVN revision. It did not help but only added confusion.
2. It had some "check for updates" logic which could ping the server, but we always forgot to update the server side of this feature. This was the main thing I wanted to remove.

I guess I removed the whole GUI element because I thought having this info in console is enough.

[wesp5]

I always found it helpful to see which version is active when moving the mouse there, so I restored it in my patch already!

Edited October 14 by wesp5

[datiswous]

On 3/4/2024 at 10:10 PM, stgatilov said:

* New behavior of zero sound spawnarg is not default (6346).

Does this mean the following info needs an update?

https://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Setting_Up_Speakers#minDistance/_s_mindistance

[lowenz]

A suggestion about the OpenAL stack.

To get HRTF right (aside from let choose the "right" HRTF preset for everebody and not just force the default one) the alsoft.ini (now incapsulated, so nobody can check it and that's a problem) must have these settings:

channels=stereo
stereo-mode=headphones
stereo-encoding=hrtf

All the 3 settings are mandatory, otherwise it just doesn't work (and using by default the WASAPI shared mode, not the exclusive mode, it's not possible to avoid further and unwanted processing by the Windows Mixer or other APOs installed on the system - being the only other way this: Release OpenAL Soft 1.22.2 WASAPI-exclusive · ThreeDeeJay/openal-soft )

 

Isn't possible to let the alsoft.ini visible? And maybe OpenAL32.dll (or soft_oal if openal32 is just the router and that can be integrated into the exe)

Edited October 19 by lowenz

[stgatilov]

On 10/15/2024 at 4:41 PM, datiswous said:

Does this mean the following info needs an update?

https://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Setting_Up_Speakers#minDistance/_s_mindistance

Yes, now "s_minDistance 0" should work as people normally expect.

But this will become official only in 2.13.
And there will be a big sweep over all the missions to restore original behavior when 2.13 beta starts.

[stgatilov]

1 hour ago, lowenz said:

Isn't possible to let the alsoft.ini visible? And maybe OpenAL32.dll (or soft_oal if openal32 is just the router and that can be integrated into the exe)

The alsoft.ini is visible, and people sometimes tweak it to troubleshoot sound issues.
The DLL however is not visible, since OpenAL is embedded into TDM executable.

Quote

aside from let choose the "right" HRTF preset for everebody and not just force the default one

There was an idea to add in-game OpenAL settings and possibly allow choosing HRTF preset.
But I'm afraid nobody is good enough listener to check the presets and say "hey, this 3-rd preset sound so much more understandable for me, we really should provide selection to everyone!"

Quote

All the 3 settings are mandatory, otherwise it just doesn't work (and using by default the WASAPI shared mode, not the exclusive mode, it's not possible to avoid further and unwanted processing by the Windows Mixer or other APOs installed on the system - being the only other way this: Release OpenAL Soft 1.22.2 WASAPI-exclusive · ThreeDeeJay/openal-soft )

I feel it is not the right idea to switch to dedicated mode.
I'm pretty sure there would be many quality-of-life issue in this mode, like background sounds from OS and other applications not cutting through.

Are you sure there is real issue with Windows mixer on all machines?
I understand that it is possible to enable some automatic crap in OS that would modify all the sounds, I think I had this on some machines myself. But ultimately it is the user's will to enable some crappy "3D processing" in Windows and we shouldn't go against it.

[lowenz]

Not on all, just the ones with spatial audio processing enabled, in Windows or 3rd party APOs. The problem with non-exclusive mode is that those APOs are always on (if the user doesn't know how to disable them) and they process the OpenAL output too (so you got OpenAL HRTF virtualisation -> stereo output -> ANOTHER surround virtualisation if in Windows/APOs you have selected a multichannel setup)

EDIT: what's the actual OpenAL version used in TDM 2.12/2.13? Because the alsoft.ini options have changed a bit in the last year with the release of OpenAL Soft 1.23 but in the TDM one I can see old entries with old values.

Edited October 19 by lowenz

[nightmare]

When is beta of 2.13?

[stgatilov]

dev17171-10894 is here.

[snatcher]

The new search feature in the "Missions List" is fantastic, and the fact that we can finally have a natural a-z sort order is a blessing.

I wonder however:

1. Why the natural a-z isn't the default (nobody defended the 2.12's weird sorting in this topic)
2. Why players have the option to switch name sorting at all (gear icon) - see point 1
3. In what situation anyone would need z-a name order (arrows)

It's all about options yes, but I fail to see the purpose.

Why do I care, you ask? Well, from a developer point of view removing a feature isn't as easy as adding new features (player outrage). We are probably cluttering the interface with things nobody uses. It is space that can be used in the future for something else but now you have to take into account current icons. It is code that needs to be taken into consideration and maintained in future updates.

[datiswous]

2 hours ago, snatcher said:

In what situation anyone would need z-a name order (arrows)

Well If I want to go to the last mission in the list, I only have to click that button. Pretty neat I say.

 

2 hours ago, snatcher said:

It is space that can be used in the future for something else but now you have to take into account current icons. It is code that needs to be taken into consideration and maintained in future updates.

It's not relevant what is needed in the future. When that moment comes we can think about it again. Currently there is space for those icons, so it's good that it's used.

Edited November 19 by datiswous

[Daft Mugi]

50 minutes ago, snatcher said:

The new search feature in the "Missions List" is fantastic

Glad you enjoy it!

Thanks for the feedback.

51 minutes ago, snatcher said:

Why the natural a-z isn't the default (nobody defended the 2.12's weird sorting in this topic)

The sorting is not quite the same as 2.12. TDM 2.12 has the titles sorted as if they were styled as Chicago Manual of Style (CMOS).

Example (2.12):

• The Painter's Wife
• Perilous Refuge

The default title style of the latest 2.13 dev build is CMOS, because there were devs who wanted it that way. CMOS is a standard title style, and the titles are sorted as displayed.

Example (CMOS):

• Painter's Wife, The
• Perilous Refuge

1 hour ago, snatcher said:

Why players have the option to switch name sorting at all (gear icon)

Some players strongly wanted an alphabetical title style and sort order. At least one dev suggested a menu option so this topic could be settled and not be brought up repeatedly.

Example (Alphabetical):

• Perilous Refuge
• The Painter's Wife

1 hour ago, snatcher said:

In what situation anyone would need z-a name order (arrows)

I guess the same reason why a file browser or music player allows sorting in ascending and descending order. Perhaps the player wants to play "Written in Stone" and would rather press the sort order button than scroll to the bottom. Perhaps players would expect it after seeing it on the Download Missions screen.

1 hour ago, snatcher said:

We are probably cluttering the interface with things nobody uses. It is space that can be used in the future for something else but now you have to take into account current icons.

One purpose of the "Mission List Settings" modal accessed via the gear icon is to provide an additional space for future options, if any, without cluttering up the main interface.

 

I hope that answers your questions.

[snatcher]

Thanks for the answers and for sharing your points of view, @datiswous and @Daft Mugi. No further comments.

Edited November 19 by snatcher

[wesp5]

Great to have this finally, I can remove a lot of stuff from my patch soon ;). One suggestion though: Maybe the font size should be reduced? As you can already see in the screenshot, most campaign mission names will probably be cut off!

Edited November 20 by wesp5

[snatcher]

6 hours ago, wesp5 said:

One suggestion though: Maybe the font size should be reduced? As you can already see in the screenshot, most campaign mission names will probably be cut off!

In my local set of hacks I have the textscale set to 0.215 (mainmenu_newgame.gui). I didn't bother changing the background, though.

[snatcher]

On 3/4/2024 at 10:10 PM, stgatilov said:

Changelog of 2.13 development:

dev17056-10800
* Improved volume estimation for subtitles, very quiet subtitles are hidden (6491).

I have mixed feelings about this change.

We have a radar that visually represents relative location (and to some degree distance although too short to actually be relevant) and a dot representing the source. There is nothing in there that speaks "volume".

The way I understand it, in 2.12 the transparency of the radar fluctuates based (mainly) on "sound propagation". This works well in the sense that I think players (myself included) instinctively understand at a glance what is going on in all situations.

In 2.13 it seems actual audio "volume" takes a big part of the equation and it is not that evident to me what the transparency is trying to convey. Is the source moving around or moving away from me? No, the source just ended one sentence and paused for half second before the next sentence.

Wouldn't it make more sense to let the dot do the volume work (change dot transparency based on volume)?

On a side note, the modded subs I provided as an alternative for 2.12 don't work well in 2.13 but that's fine, I will figure something out. I would however suggest that more alpha values are exposed to the GUI for us to experiment further. In example:

1. subtitle_alpha (whatever is deemed best by the developers)
2. subtitle_alpha_propagation
3. subtitle_alpha_distance
4. subtitle_alpha_volume

[wesp5]

45 minutes ago, snatcher said:

In my local set of hacks I have the textscale set to 0.215 (mainmenu_newgame.gui).

Thanks for the tip, I might use it in my patch. But as with many of our "hacks" shouldn't this be part of the core game?

Edited November 20 by wesp5

[snatcher]

35 minutes ago, wesp5 said:

Thanks for the tip, I might use it in my patch. But as with many of our "hacks" shouldn't this be part of the core game?

The very next mission could have a name way longer than anticipated but yes, names could be a tad smaller. And not only because of long names but also because that way we can scan more missions at a glance. There already are GUI elements with small sizes and usability shouldn't be a concern.

Edited November 20 by snatcher