[2.10] Beta testing new Main Menu GUI

[datiswous]

On 7/26/2021 at 7:40 AM, stgatilov said:

Mission "The Hare in the Snare, Pt. 1" by @Frost_Salamander and @Kerry000.

The Download new mission screen looks like this:

Spoiler

In the middle you can see there is another parchment behind it.

Also the files inside the pk4 file are a bit bizarre:

Spoiler

Basically it has mostly loose files, with the logically folder structure inside the file name including some empty files with only the folder name. Maybe this is on purpose, because the mission seems to work fine.

Edited January 1, 2022 by datiswous

[datiswous]

The new main menu gui has a lot more space on the left part of the new mission selection screen. Are there plans to change some of the layout here?

I already made some changes for myself:

Spoiler

It would be nicer if instead of seeing the install_splash.tga you could see the screenshots slider from the details screen in Download missions section.

 

Edited January 1, 2022 by datiswous

[stgatilov]

11 hours ago, datiswous said:

In the middle you can see there is another parchment behind it.

Is it a problem?

I did not even notice it myself.

Quote

Also the files inside the pk4 file are a bit bizarre:

Basically it has mostly loose files, with the logically folder structure inside the file name including some empty files with only the folder name. Maybe this is on purpose, because the mission seems to work fine.

Zip archive contains array of items. Every item has relative file path and contents, plus some other info. Every item is either a directory (filename ends with slash, contents are empty) or a file (actual contents are stored). The directories are optional: first version of zip format did not support them at all.

The directory structure is not stored in zip, it is reconstructed by the program that you use to look into it. When I open this pk4, it looks normal, as usual.

[datiswous]

5 hours ago, stgatilov said:

Is it a problem?

No, it just looks bad imo. Anyway I'm just reporting it.

5 hours ago, stgatilov said:

Zip archive contains array of items.

Thanks, I learned something.

[Geep]

With [16390-9648] in Settings/Video/Advanced,

you have these 2 items:

Uncap FPS

Max FPS

But "Max FPS" only becomes adjustable when "Uncap FPS" is On. Seems opposite of what I would expect, unless I'm misunderstanding.

BTW, if you called the toggle "Cap FPS" rather than "Uncap FPS", it would hurt my head less, given that you have a cap value, "Max FPS".

 

[stgatilov]

16 hours ago, Geep said:

With [16390-9648] in Settings/Video/Advanced,

you have these 2 items:

Uncap FPS

Max FPS

But "Max FPS" only becomes adjustable when "Uncap FPS" is On. Seems opposite of what I would expect, unless I'm misunderstanding.

BTW, if you called the toggle "Cap FPS" rather than "Uncap FPS", it would hurt my head less, given that you have a cap value, "Max FPS".

I think these two lack tooltip.
The tooltip for Uncap FPS should say that this mode allows FPS higher than 60.

[HMart]

IMO uncap fps in the menu feels totally redundant and something the player shouldn't even need to set manually. I ask, why not have, set max fps only, with default at 60 and if you then set a Max FPS above 60, the engine automatically uncaps the fps? IMO sounds more logical and user friendly that way, just my two cents. 

[duzenko]

20 hours ago, HMart said:

IMO uncap fps in the menu feels totally redundant and something the player shouldn't even need to set manually. I ask, why not have, set max fps only, with default at 60 and if you then set a Max FPS above 60, the engine automatically uncaps the fps? IMO sounds more logical and user friendly that way, just my two cents. 

Sounds like you're opening an opinion discussion

Fps limit only works with vsync off. So with vsync on, you're basically forbidding free tics. Not only it excludes everything except 60Hz monitors, you'd also cause microstuttering due to monitor-cpu 60-herz sync-up.

[stgatilov]

23 hours ago, HMart said:

IMO uncap fps in the menu feels totally redundant and something the player shouldn't even need to set manually. I ask, why not have, set max fps only, with default at 60 and if you then set a Max FPS above 60, the engine automatically uncaps the fps? IMO sounds more logical and user friendly that way, just my two cents. 

I think the main reason is that internally there is huge difference between the two modes (Uncapped FPS: yes or no).
Up to the point that "Uncapped FPS" mode has been considered experimental for many releases.
I don't remember when we last had a problem with it, but we always wanted to have a way to switch it off, and doing so on "Max FPS = 60" is almost the same as not providing any way to configure it in the main menu at all.

Another thing is that "Max FPS" was not intended to exist initially, uncapped FPS should just work as fast as it can.
But then we noticed that high FPS causes issues (e.g. some sounds disappearing), and we did not manage to fix it properly. We just put a "sane" limit of 166 FPS, since that felt the safest way.
Then came people with high-frequency monitors, and they wanted to change this limit to a bit higher that their monitor frequency. At the end someone decided it is important enough for everyone and added it to menu settings.

It seems to me that people with high-frequency monitors can live well with both Uncapped FPS and V-sync on, without the need to tweak the FPS limit which was never intended to be visible to end user. If yes, then we can remove "Max FPS" from the menu.

[Dragofer]

I always imagined the FPS limit as an environmentally friendly option that also spares your hardware from running at maximum load all the time. Especially for laptops on battery.

[nbohr1more]

I like having both options.

That said, the "uncapped mode" ( com_fixedTic 1 ) runs smoother for me even if I set Max FPS to 60 or lower.

If it were up to me we would change "Uncap FPS" to "Decoupled FPS" meaning that physics is decoupled from FPS

[stgatilov]

34 minutes ago, nbohr1more said:

If it were up to me we would change "Uncap FPS" to "Decoupled FPS" meaning that physics is decoupled from FPS

Except that it is vice versa: with uncapped FPS physics runs with rendering and the results of modelling somewhat depends on your FPS, whereas with old-style model physics always works at 60 Hz frequency, not depending on graphics.

[nbohr1more]

24 minutes ago, stgatilov said:

Except that it is vice versa: with uncapped FPS physics runs with rendering and the results of modelling somewhat depends on your FPS, whereas with old-style model physics always works at 60 Hz frequency, not depending on graphics.

Well "Coupled FPS" would probably work then but I guess that doesn't quite describe the situation. "Relative FPS" would be a little more accurate but also much more confusing.

[HMart]

3 hours ago, duzenko said:

Sounds like you're opening an opinion discussion

Fps limit only works with vsync off. So with vsync on, you're basically forbidding free tics. Not only it excludes everything except 60Hz monitors, you'd also cause microstuttering due to monitor-cpu 60-herz sync-up.

Sorry if I came a little obtuse It was not my intention but at lest made you guys discuss the subject. ;D 

Like I said it was a opinion and truth be told based on much ignorance in how TDM render and idtech 4 render in general works, I know vanilla engine is locked at 60hz and that is why I explicitly said "default" of 60, but was just a suggestion.

I was also basing my opinion on what I see other games do, afaik TDM is the only game, where you have to explicitly unlock fps's, before being able to set a max fps, at lest in the menu visible to the player. But TDM situation seems to be a particularity of this engine old idtech4 DNA.

"Fps limit only works with vsync off" 

Is that a general fact or only a TDM (idtech 4) fact? I have games where I have both on and they seem to not conflict, but perhaps those games just disable one or the other behind the scenes?

" it excludes everything except 60Hz monitors"

Like I said it was just a suggestion, not trying to exclude high-frequency monitors, specially because I have one!  A 165hz FreeSync monitor.

And wouldn't people be able to set their own frequency? Also honest question, can't you detect in the engine code at what frequency player monitor is at and set accordingly?

 

2 minutes ago, stgatilov said:

I think the main reason is that internally there is huge difference between the two modes (Uncapped FPS: yes or no).
Up to the point that "Uncapped FPS" mode has been considered experimental for many releases.
I don't remember when we last had a problem with it, but we always wanted to have a way to switch it off, and doing so on "Max FPS = 60" is almost the same as not providing any way to configure it in the main menu at all.

Another thing is that "Max FPS" was not intended to exist initially, uncapped FPS should just work as fast as it can.
But then we noticed that high FPS causes issues (e.g. some sounds disappearing), and we did not manage to fix it properly. We just put a "sane" limit of 166 FPS, since that felt the safest way.
Then came people with high-frequency monitors, and they wanted to change this limit to a bit higher that their monitor frequency. At the end someone decided it is important enough for everyone and added it to menu settings.

It seems to me that people with high-frequency monitors can live well with both Uncapped FPS and V-sync on, without the need to tweak the FPS limit which was never intended to be visible to end user. If yes, then we can remove "Max FPS" from the menu.

"Then came people with high-frequency monitors" Like you see I'm one of those.  

This imo is obviously a case of me not being privy on the internals of the TDM engine render, making wrong assumptions based on past experience with other games/engines... :S 

[nbohr1more]

58 minutes ago, nbohr1more said:

Well "Coupled FPS" would probably work then but I guess that doesn't quite describe the situation. "Relative FPS" would be a little more accurate but also much more confusing.

Actually "Uncapped Physics" might be a good descriptor ?

[duzenko]

26 minutes ago, HMart said:

Sorry if I came a little obtuse It was not my intention but at lest made you guys discuss the subject. ;D 

Same from me

Quote

"Fps limit only works with vsync off" 

Is that a general fact or only a TDM (idtech 4) fact? I have games where I have both on and they seem to not conflict, but perhaps those games just disable one or the other behind the scenes?

TDM only of course, last time I checked it was like this

Quote

" it excludes everything except 60Hz monitors"

Like I said it was just a suggestion, not trying to exclude high-frequency monitors, specially because I have one!  A 165hz FreeSync monitor.

And wouldn't people be able to set their own frequency? Also honest question, can't you detect in the engine code at what frequency player monitor is at and set accordingly?

No idea how it works with freesync, never had one

[duzenko]

2 hours ago, stgatilov said:

I think the main reason is that internally there is huge difference between the two modes (Uncapped FPS: yes or no).
Up to the point that "Uncapped FPS" mode has been considered experimental for many releases.
I don't remember when we last had a problem with it, but we always wanted to have a way to switch it off, and doing so on "Max FPS = 60" is almost the same as not providing any way to configure it in the main menu at all.

Another thing is that "Max FPS" was not intended to exist initially, uncapped FPS should just work as fast as it can.
But then we noticed that high FPS causes issues (e.g. some sounds disappearing), and we did not manage to fix it properly. We just put a "sane" limit of 166 FPS, since that felt the safest way.
Then came people with high-frequency monitors, and they wanted to change this limit to a bit higher that their monitor frequency. At the end someone decided it is important enough for everyone and added it to menu settings.

It seems to me that people with high-frequency monitors can live well with both Uncapped FPS and V-sync on, without the need to tweak the FPS limit which was never intended to be visible to end user. If yes, then we can remove "Max FPS" from the menu.

I'd remove the fixed tic option completely

Vsync + fps limit should cover all possible situations

[stgatilov]

One thing I don't understand is why Max FPS has so many options.
I'd say in such case it should better be a slider with value, like e.g. gamma slider.

P.S. Meanwhile, I'm trying to write more tooltips and update existing ones...

[HMart]

57 minutes ago, duzenko said:

Same from me

TDM only of course, last time I checked it was like this

No idea how it works with freesync, never had one

No Problem.  

Of topic but about freesync, afaik It sync's monitor refresh to game fps and not the other way around like Vsync does, in my case to min, max limits of 40hz to 165hz, games running bellow ~40fps, may cause screen tear and may need Vsync enabled. 

I have plenty of games with Vsync off and ever since I got this monitor, I don't remember ever seeing a sync tear, even on games reaching bellow 40fps, but I have Radeon enhanced sync (similar to Nvidia Fast Sync) always on, so that maybe be why.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOoPLuUeAY0

 

[datiswous]

This page needs an update: https://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Installing_and_Running_Fan_Missions

( and this one: https://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=The_Dark_Mod_Gameplay )

Edit: I updated the page Installing and running fan missions.

Edit2: And that other page as well.

Edited April 12, 2022 by datiswous

[datiswous]

@stgatilov Mission Thief's Den: When you start the mission, in the mission briefing, if you click on the "Back" button, you get to see the mission menu instead of the main menu. Wrong code for the back button in mainmenu_briefing.gui ?

Btw. this mission has mainmenu_briefing.gui and mainmenu_briefing.old.gui which both are the same file.

Edited April 14, 2023 by datiswous

[stgatilov]

On 4/14/2023 at 3:21 PM, datiswous said:

@stgatilov Mission Thief's Den: When you start the mission, in the mission briefing, if you click on the "Back" button, you get to see the mission menu instead of the main menu. Wrong code for the back button in mainmenu_briefing.gui ?

That's because this mission overrides mainmenu_briefing.gui and it does exactly that:

	/***************************************************************************
	 *
	 *          The "Back" Button
	 *
	 **************************************************************************/

	windowDef BriefingNewGameButton
	{
		rect		POS_BRIEFING_MAIN_MENU_BUTTON
		matcolor	1, 1, 1, 1
		background	"guis/assets/mainmenu/buttons_start/back"
		visible		1
	}

    windowDef BriefingNewGameButtonH

		onAction
		{
			set "cmd" "play sound/meta/menu/mnu_select;";
			
			// Switch to the mod menu
			set "gui::targetmode" MM_STATE_MOD_SELECT;
			resetTime "MainMenuModeSelect" 0;
		}
	}

This file was written before The Great Main Menu Refactoring, so it uses explicit state names.
The correct modern approach would be to set "gui::targetmode" MM_STATE_BACKWARD, which would cause engine to look what is considered previous in builtin tables, and hopefully move to main menu.

Also, this file was written before the change related to start mission / install mission.
At that moment, current mission was started from mission selection screen, so this custom gui redirects to that screen instead of just main menu.

[datiswous]

On 4/22/2023 at 11:14 PM, stgatilov said:

This file was written before The Great Main Menu Refactoring, so it uses explicit state names.
The correct modern approach would be to set "gui::targetmode" MM_STATE_BACKWARD, which would cause engine to look what is considered previous in builtin tables, and hopefully move to main menu.

Also, this file was written before the change related to start mission / install mission.
At that moment, current mission was started from mission selection screen, so this custom gui redirects to that screen instead of just main menu.

I understand, but I thought you wanted to fix those. I guess it's up to @Fidcalto fix this mission, although anyone could do it really.

[stgatilov]

22 hours ago, datiswous said:

I understand, but I thought you wanted to fix those. I guess it's up to @Fidcalto fix this mission, although anyone could do it really.

This problem most likely happens in all the missions with custom briefing released before 2.10.
I don't want to waste so much time and nerves on such a minor issue.