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[ 2.10 ] New Frob Shader


duzenko

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2 hours ago, AluminumHaste said:

Well, as long as the colour and alpha cvars are left exposed to users, you can just set the alpha to 0.

That sounds like a good idea for those who want to turn it off. I'd make the alpha a slider in the menu also. When it's set to 0 though, the engine should know to skip drawing it so it also recovers performance.

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17 hours ago, stgatilov said:

spawn atdm:moveable_flask1

Highlighting with plain white will make things look milky. Highlighting with diffuse texture does not work for some specular objects. There is no universal rule to highlight everything, I'm afraid.

Maybe, there could be a fixed set of different highlight strategies, which can be selected by the material and then applied by the highlight shader - so transparent stuff would get the treatment that currently is defined as stage in that flask's material.

Preset 3 (the really soft one) actually wouldn't look too bad if you could get rid of the artifacts.
It still literally highlights TDM's low standard asset polygon count though...

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  • 2 weeks later...

I've been playing TDM quite intensely for the last little while, going through my own WIP and playing the Hidden Hands series and haven't seen any problems with the new geometric frob outlines.  I use preset 2, the soft outline, which appears more finished.  I rejected preset 3, the image based preset, because my WIP has a lot of frobable 'grill' type transparent shaders where the outline fills the holes with white, not allowing for a peek thru'.  

Thanks stgatilov.  You guys are doing an awesome job.

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  • 3 weeks later...

For what it's worth I would add after spending significant time with each preset the one that in my experience has worked most reliably as intended is preset 2 - which I would add also looks significantly less bloom artifact laden with "r_frobOutlineColorA 2" set as was recommended earlier in the thread. Overall I think it's a great addition!

-=  IRIS  =-    ♦    = SLL =

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While playing the two new beta missions I replaced the Frob Helper with a Frob Outline option that I have been asking for here again and again. Please just copy the lines below into the final 2.10 version, otherwise I will include it in my patch...

mainmenu_settings_gameplay.gui:

        choiceDef FrobHelper
        {
            rect        SETTINGS_X_OFFSET, 102+TT_OFFSET_Y, 80, MM_LINE_H
            choices        "#str_04221"            // No;Yes
            values        "0;1"
            cvar        "r_frobOutline"        // changed by wesp
            CHOICE_DEF
            toolTip("#str_01741")
        }

english.lang (and all the others):

"#str_01741"    "makes interacting with objects easier\n by displaying a bright white outline"        // changed by wesp

"#str_02319"    "Show Frob Outline"        // changed by wesp

Edited by wesp5
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  • 1 year later...

Boosting performance by replacing frob material stages with a shader (very first post) sounds like an improvement but gameplay-wise the issue perhaps is something else. People got used to the current frob highlight and the fact that after 15 pages there is no consensus (or even middle ground) makes me wonder if a frob outline or even a different frob highlight color is the solution we want.

I found a kind of exploit and I am trying to do something different - if only as a proof of concept - but boy there is a difference between what you plan in your head versus what you actually see (and feel) on screen 😅

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I added an option to activate the hidden frob outline in my Unofficial Patch, but as I wrote before, I'm happy with the old solution and see the white outline only as suitable for people who want it much more easy to see things at cost of the atmosphere. I found the black outline to be the best compromise, but didn't yet manage to turn it on without using the console, so snatcher, if you can figure that out, please tell me! Here is the UI code for the default bright white outline:

        windowDef SettingGameplayGeneralText12    // added by wesp
        {
            rect        TEXT_X_OFFSET, 136+TT_OFFSET_Y, 230, MM_LINE_H
            text        "Show Frob Outline"        // Show Frob Outline
            font        SETTINGS_FONT
            textscale    SETTINGS_FONT_SCALE
            forecolor    SETTINGS_FONT_COLOUR
            visible        1
        }

        choiceDef FrobOutline        // added by wesp
        {
            rect        SETTINGS_X_OFFSET, 136+TT_OFFSET_Y, 80, MM_LINE_H
            choices        "#str_04221"            // No;Yes
            values        "0;1"
            cvar     "r_frobOutline"
            CHOICE_DEF
            toolTip("#str_menu_froboutline_tooltip")
        }

The problem is that I would need to also set r_frobOutlinePreset 6 in the UI and I don't know how to do it...

 

Edited by wesp5
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15 hours ago, snatcher said:

Boosting performance by replacing frob material stages with a shader (very first post) sounds like an improvement but gameplay-wise the issue perhaps is something else. People got used to the current frob highlight and the fact that after 15 pages there is no consensus (or even middle ground) makes me wonder if a frob outline or even a different frob highlight color is the solution we want.

I found a kind of exploit and I am trying to do something different - if only as a proof of concept - but boy there is a difference between what you plan in your head versus what you actually see (and feel) on screen 😅

Frob outline is dead since 2.11.
People can still use it because the code for frob outline has not caused much trouble yet.

The frob stages are still used.
The main difference is that now they are automatically generated for all materials, and tweaking them takes less text in most cases.

 

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1 hour ago, stgatilov said:

Frob outline is dead since 2.11.
People can still use it because the code for frob outline has not caused much trouble yet.

Can you please tell me if it is possible to make the frob outline use a different preset as default?

Edited by wesp5
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13 minutes ago, wesp5 said:

Can you please tell me if it is possible to make the frob outline use a different preset as default?

As far as I remember, there are some presets hardcoded in source code.
There is no "default" preset: when you select preset, all the individual presets are assigned values as hardcoded into the source. So preset is not like cvar, it's more like a command.

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It's funny how while I still prefer a frob outline, I haven't enabled it yet as it still seems it doesn't work just right. IIRC it still won't handle issues like the outline of a door inside a door frame properly, the outline was either hidden or shown when you don't want it to and looked bad. Still feels like something we could add a menu option for while keeping off by default.

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7 hours ago, wesp5 said:

I added an option to activate the hidden frob outline in my Unofficial Patch, but as I wrote before, I'm happy with the old solution and see the white outline only as suitable for people who want it much more easy to see things at cost of the atmosphere. I found the black outline to be the best compromise, but didn't yet manage to turn it on without using the console, so snatcher, if you can figure that out, please tell me! Here is the UI code for the default bright white outline:

        windowDef SettingGameplayGeneralText12    // added by wesp
        {
            rect        TEXT_X_OFFSET, 136+TT_OFFSET_Y, 230, MM_LINE_H
            text        "Show Frob Outline"        // Show Frob Outline
            font        SETTINGS_FONT
            textscale    SETTINGS_FONT_SCALE
            forecolor    SETTINGS_FONT_COLOUR
            visible        1
        }

        choiceDef FrobOutline        // added by wesp
        {
            rect        SETTINGS_X_OFFSET, 136+TT_OFFSET_Y, 80, MM_LINE_H
            choices        "#str_04221"            // No;Yes
            values        "0;1"
            cvar     "r_frobOutline"
            CHOICE_DEF
            toolTip("#str_menu_froboutline_tooltip")
        }

The problem is that I would need to also set r_frobOutlinePreset 6 in the UI and I don't know how to do it...

 

Hey Wesp5,

We already tried and it didn't work: r_frobOutlinePreset refuses to collaborate, as explained by @stgatilov

But it just occurred to me that instead of using r_frobOutlinePreset we could set the vars individually as per your liking (core preset #6):

		choiceDef FrobOutline		// added by wesp
		{
			rect		SETTINGS_X_OFFSET, 136+TT_OFFSET_Y, 80, MM_LINE_H
			choices		"#str_04221"
			values		"0;1"
			cvar		"r_frobOutline"
			CHOICE_DEF
			toolTip("#str_menu_froboutline_tooltip")

			onAction
			{
				// r_frobOutlinePreset 6
				// image-based depth-aware black (tweaked by Nbohr1more)
				set "cmd" "exec 'r_frobOutlineColorA 2.5'";
				set "cmd" "exec 'r_frobIgnoreDepth 0'";
				set "cmd" "exec 'r_frobOutlineColorR 0.0'";
				set "cmd" "exec 'r_frobOutlineColorG 0.0'";
				set "cmd" "exec 'r_frobOutlineColorB 0.0'";
			}
		}

(You will be messing with user's local configuration so use at your own risk 😉)

Edited by snatcher
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Here are my takeaways from this whole thread:

On 12/12/2020 at 9:10 AM, STiFU said:

[...] In a bright scene you cannot (or just barely) see if an object is highlighted. [...]

On 5/2/2021 at 11:35 AM, STiFU said:

The problem with the regular frob highlight is that it cannot be seen well in bright areas. [...]

On 5/13/2021 at 3:26 AM, MirceaKitsune said:

[...] In the past I've also been confused whether I was frobbing an object or not... [...]

On 5/31/2021 at 10:19 PM, MirceaKitsune said:

[...] maybe the color should depend on the type of entity being frobbed. Like green for doors, gold for loot, blue for in-world decorations you can move around, etc. [...]

On 6/1/2021 at 10:00 AM, STiFU said:

Players frequently critisized that they could not properly distinguish loot from junk, [...]

On 6/1/2021 at 4:29 PM, thebigh said:

[...] "Hmm... is this copper goblet loot or not? Let's pick it up to find out. Oh, it isn't loot, it's just a carriable goblet. Guess I'll just quietly put it down somewhere..." [...]

On 6/1/2021 at 4:51 PM, stgatilov said:

[...] I have seen some maps where bottles and plates were loot, while they did not look like that. Having different highlight color will help with it. [...]

On 6/1/2021 at 6:06 PM, roygato said:

[...] one piece of loot was a plain old green wine bottle. I recently replayed the mission, and it took me an ungodly amount of time to stumble upon it to meet the quota.

And as mentioned, paintings are the worst when it comes to this, no real way of figuring out which ones are loot and which aren't. [...]

On 6/1/2021 at 6:22 PM, thebigh said:

[...] It doesn't need to be glaring, just give loot and keys a yellow outline to distinguish them from non-treasure frobbables.

On 6/1/2021 at 7:07 PM, roygato said:

[...] the current highlighting is easy to miss when it comes to loot paintings. [...]

On 6/1/2021 at 8:24 PM, thebigh said:

[...] our nameless protagonist should be able to tell the difference between loot and junk when he's close enough to inspect it. [...]

On 6/1/2021 at 9:39 PM, kingsal said:

[...] we're trying to explore solutions to an issue that's have been raised among the community (not being able to tell loot apart from other objects). [...]

[...] "Missing the highlight" is something we'd like to avoid all together. [...]

On 6/3/2021 at 10:03 AM, Destined said:

[...] it would help players to more easily recognise loot, when they are in range to frob it. [...]

On 6/3/2021 at 2:48 PM, roygato said:

[...] The other loot issues I've had are due to mappers using junk as loot, [...]

Loot, paintings... I am surprised nobody mentioned the annoyance of frobbing countless useless books 😁

Issue identified. Let's try something different.

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I never had problems looting paintings, but I often pick up goblets hoping they are loot and they are not. But I don't think we have an outline option differentiating between Frob and Frob Loot in the first place, do we? Also I will try your outline idea later, thanks... P.S.: Your outline solution works fine, I will update my patch with it :)!

Edited by wesp5
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Excuse if all this comes in chapters...

I propose the following: any item that goes into the inventory will get a different frob highlight. The idea is that our protagonist has a keen eye in identifying at a glance what's familiar, valuable or remarkable and therefore relevant for him.

Target items for the "special" highlight are loot (including paintings), portable readables (maps / notes / books), keys, potions, weapons, ammo, tools... and any other special item mappers prepared for the taken. The exception to the rule are non-portable redeables, which are included in the target list because we don't want to miss important bits, do we?

The rest of the world remains as is: players still have to explore absolutely everything the way it is now to find the the connected clues and their way forward, the triggers to the hidden passages or simply, the in-plain-sight switches.

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21 hours ago, snatcher said:

I propose the following: any item that goes into the inventory will get a different frob highlight.

I like the general idea and it shouldn't be that difficult to do, at least for loot. After all we already get a different frob sound when frobbing loot so somehow the game must know the difference before the loot is accounted for! We could then e.g. use the black frob outline for normal items, which is rather unobtrusive, and one of the white outlines for loot, so that is really obvious. I doubt it can be extended to other important items though, because I don't think the game could do that without mission authors defining those, which won't be possible for all the hundreds of released missions. To me the main question is whether this has to be done in the core game or with scripting? Snatcher, are you already looking into this ;)?

Edited by wesp5
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@wesp5

Different colors can be too much on the nose, @peter_spy perfectly illustrated it here and I agree:

On 6/3/2021 at 1:54 PM, peter_spy said:

[...] Now imagine player's thoughts in the same situation when the frob is gold for loot and blue for junk: "okay, objects on the table, blue, blue, blue, gold! press RMB!, blue, blue, blue, next room please." At some point you stop seeing objects, you just look for outline color as it does the job the fastest.

I also agree with something you said:

On 8/13/2021 at 10:07 AM, wesp5 said:

[...] What is the problem with something that worked fine for over ten years? [...]

A year ago I raised my concern and proposed something:

On 6/12/2022 at 7:10 PM, snatcher said:

[...]

Second, and here is the meat of the topic: to make frobable items stand out in a slightly different way. See, because of lightning in TDM many times it is difficult to tell if an object is frobable or not, and frobable objects become even more elusive if you are close to a light source or using the lantern. Is that highlighted or not? (you know the drill: step back or move the mouse around).

In order to keep things simple I suggest a subtle but effective blinking effect or fade in/out animation when objects are within reach. This shouldn't be too difficult to implement considering we would "only" have to increase/decrease the brightness levels in a sequence with the help of a timer. Never miss a painting again!

EDIT -  you can see it in action here:

(It's a +5MB gif that can take some time load)

[...]

(Unfortunately the gif is gone)

A blink/pulse is just an extension of the frob highlight that has served well for many years. We aren't introducing anything new such colors, outlines or other effects on top. Just a little touch that can be missed but can also be helpful if you look for it.

Back in the day I didn't have the knowledge and experience but now I do and I have a prototype (script) almost ready. Fine-tuning it is proving challenging but I am getting there. You will be able to judge it soon.

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1 hour ago, snatcher said:

@wesp5

Different colors can be too much on the nose, @peter_spy perfectly illustrated it here and I agree:

Even if you just use blinking instead, as soon as there is an obvious difference peter_spy's argument is valid. I for my part am happy with the black outline which improves visibility in situations where it wasn't before! But I will test whatever you cook up, although I guess at first it will be blinking for all frobable stuff, no?

Edited by wesp5
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22 hours ago, wesp5 said:

Even if you just use blinking instead, as soon as there is an obvious difference peter_spy's argument is valid.

We will see.

22 hours ago, wesp5 said:

[...] I guess at first it will be blinking for all frobable stuff, no?

No. If everything is important, nothing is important. "The rules" is what makes the difference with previous attempts.

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12 hours ago, snatcher said:

If everything is important, nothing is important. "The rules" is what makes the difference with previous attempts.

Hm, so maybe the loot willl blink and the rest will not. Wasn't this the case in the latest official Thief game?

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