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Frob outline poll


stgatilov

What would you feel if frob outline is always enabled?  

21 members have voted

  1. 1. With r_frobOutlinePreset 1 (geometric hard)

    • Will be happy to use it all the time!
      8
    • I don't care if it is enabled or not.
      1
    • I'm don't like how it looks/feels, but won't regret much if it is enabled.
      4
    • I'm strongly against this outline, and don't want playing with it!
      8
  2. 2. With r_frobOutlinePreset 2 (geometric soft)

    • Will be happy to use it all the time!
      8
    • I don't care if it is enabled or not.
      1
    • I'm don't like how it looks/feels, but won't regret much if it is enabled.
      7
    • I'm strongly against this outline, and don't want playing with it!
      5
  3. 3. With r_frobOutlinePreset 3 (image-based)

    • Will be happy to use it all the time!
      6
    • I don't care if it is enabled or not.
      3
    • I'm don't like how it looks/feels, but won't regret much if it is enabled.
      3
    • I'm strongly against this outline, and don't want playing with it!
      9


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1 hour ago, cabalistic said:

Which is why I must again strongly object to any UI choices on the feature. Either implement it or scrap it.

I don't see the problem. Frob Outline to me is kind of a Frob Easy Mode and TDM supplies easy modes for AI and lockpicking already! In my patch I replaced the Frob Helper with this menu, which was a Frob Easy Mode as well.

Edited by wesp5
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7 minutes ago, wesp5 said:

I don't see the problem. Frob Outline to me is kind of a Frob Easy Mode and TDM supplies easy modes for AI and lockpicking already! In my patch I replaced the Frob Helper with this menu, which was a Frob Easy Mode as well.

An outline for frob highlight works independently of the object and its material. Without a frob outline, we are back to the status quo where highlighting an object is dependent on its material to work properly. If frob outline is deemed an optional feature, mappers need to design for it to not be present so that their objects highlight properly without the outline. Which kind of defeats the reason why the feature was implemented in the first place.

On the other hand, if they wanted to keep some objects "hidden" as a secret, the outline makes that harder. So again, it's kind of difficult to design missions around both options, hence not both should be offered as approved options to players.

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35 minutes ago, cabalistic said:

Which kind of defeats the reason why the feature was implemented in the first place.

So you are saying that even with the outline, we will have some objects highlighted completely while others show nothing but the outline? How can this be considered a fix for the problem?

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8 minutes ago, wesp5 said:

So you are saying that even with the outline, we will have some objects highlighted completely while others show nothing but the outline? How can this be considered a fix for the problem?

Because the outline *is* the highlight in that case? I don't know what you are saying here.

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1 hour ago, cabalistic said:

Because the outline *is* the highlight in that case? I don't know what you are saying here.

I mean it would still look like a bug if some objects are correctly highlighted and some are not. In that case it would only make sense to remove everything except the outline and make that as unintrusive as possible!

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I haven't had SVN installed for quite a long time now and haven't been keeping up with dev builds.  Is there a way for me to access the latest dev build without installing SVN again?  Would like to try this out.  I'll be up front and say that I am not in favor of replacing the classic frob highlight with an outline but as an option I have no problem with it.

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1 hour ago, wesp5 said:

I mean it would still look like a bug if some objects are correctly highlighted and some are not. In that case it would only make sense to remove everything except the outline and make that as unintrusive as possible!

Ha... the outline does not show at all on some doors,which is also not fixable.
Unless everyone likes the depth-ignoring outline, but we have already left this behind I hope.

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46 minutes ago, New Horizon said:

I haven't had SVN installed for quite a long time now and haven't been keeping up with dev builds.  Is there a way for me to access the latest dev build without installing SVN again?  Would like to try this out.  I'll be up front and say that I am not in favor of replacing the classic frob highlight with an outline but as an option I have no problem with it.

Find or get tdm_installer.
Use instructions in beta testing thread to get beta210-01.

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8 hours ago, cabalistic said:

Which is why I must again strongly object to any UI choices on the feature. Either implement it or scrap it. No half measures, please.

We're only taking half measures because no one can actually make a final decision here.
So then I suggest scrapping it or going with the version with the least problems (#2 currently?). 

EDIT: Actually it looks like the problems between the geo and image based solutions aren't dramatically different. Will keep testing before I make any more claims. 

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hmm, downloaded latest dev build, then tried all three r_frobOutlinePresets when frobbing a piece of lumber. Could see no difference whatsoever; all had same outline+highlight. Either the difference is too subtle for me, or my meager graphics chip can't cope. And I'm confused as to whether this poll is to replace the highlight, or supplement the highlight, or replace the highlight only on translucent objects.

Since I don't understand what I'm voting for, won't.

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2 hours ago, Geep said:

And I'm confused as to whether this poll is to replace the highlight, or supplement the highlight, or replace the highlight only on translucent objects.

The poll about having frob outline always on.

But if we do that, then frob surface highlighting will be replaced too. In fact, it is already replaced on 2.10 beta.
You can check by spawning a full-translucent flask and checking that its surface does not highlight at all when you handle it.

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So:

  • r_frobOutlinePreset 1 = r_frobOutlineExtrusion -3
  • r_frobOutlinePreset 2 = r_frobOutlineExtrusion 10

Correct? Or is there more to it?

 

Edit: If we choose one method, the choice really is between two techniques: Geomatric vs image based.

If chosen for Geomatric, this is then something that should be tweakable in the gui, so players can make their own soft or hard outline.

Edited by datiswous
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2 hours ago, stgatilov said:

The poll about having frob outline always on.

But if we do that, then frob surface highlighting will be replaced too. In fact, it is already replaced on 2.10 beta.
You can check by spawning a full-translucent flask and checking that its surface does not highlight at all when you handle it.

But surface highlighting is still present, along with the outline, on 2.10 beta for that piece of lumber I frobbed.

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Ah, I see, by "surface highlighting replaced" you didn't mean "replaced by just the outline", you meant "replaced by a different mechanism, which for translucent materials means no surface highlight and just the outline".

Since I gather the proposed change is mainly to improve maintainability and simplicity of the code, I'm fine with it, and having frob outline always on. I'll take another look to see if can see any notable differences between the 3 presets on my system.

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Ha. My problem was my 2.10 taskbar shortcut was not pointing to the latest update (because i had renamed path after newest tdm installer balked at "[" character in directory name). I can see the outline difference now, so will do the poll.

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Now, some time later, in my opinion, the outline itself isn't actually that bad an idea.

But the current presets are waaaaaaaaay too much and really inaccurate/sloppy. Especially the third doesn't seem to honor occlusion that much. And the first misses some edges, while the second highlights geometry nodes as if its mission would be to mock the low-poly geometry of stock TDM models.

If it would be more reliable, more accurate, a lot less bright in dark scenes (which are the majority in this game) - then it would probably be okay.

Maybe, just layering some almost transparent scrolling alternating darkening/brightening sinus over the object in the frob focus and ditching the outline alltogether would still be the better option. Movement always attracts attention and therefore that method could probably get the job done with a fraction of the paint...

P.S.:
Still voted "won't regret much" on all options, because i am pretty sure, that the accuracy issues can be reduced and that someone will find a way to tone it down to a level not hurting my eyes (which would also help making the inaccuracies less obvious)...

Edited by Abusimplea
P.S.
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On 12/11/2021 at 11:39 PM, stgatilov said:

I guess no.
Screenshots always make false impression.

Some people might not know how to enable this. I went through the settings and couldn't see

an option to enable it. Screenshot would give good examples, even just of the design. Doesn't have to be

perfect. So I can't vote, because I can't see the alternatives.

I have an eclectic YouTube channel making videos on a variety of games. Come and have look here:

https://www.youtube.com/c/NeonsStyleHD

 

Dark Mod Missions: Briarwood Manor - available here or in game

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/18980-fan-mission-briarwood-manor-by-neonsstyle-first-mission-6082017-update-16/

 

 

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10 hours ago, Abusimplea said:

But the current presets are waaaaaaaaay too much and really inaccurate/sloppy. Especially the third doesn't seem to honor occlusion that much. And the first misses some edges, while the second highlights geometry nodes as if its mission would be to mock the low-poly geometry of stock TDM models.

because i am pretty sure, that the accuracy issues can be reduced

Unfortunately, "show full outline" and "respect occlusion" somewhat contradict each other when frobbed object touches something. So you either get one type of artifacts or the other.

16 minutes ago, NeonsStyle said:

Some people might not know how to enable this. I went through the settings and couldn't see an option to enable it.

I have added instructions to the original post about how to enable presets.

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3 hours ago, stgatilov said:

Unfortunately, "show full outline" and "respect occlusion" somewhat contradict each other when frobbed object touches something. So you either get one type of artifacts or the other.

Obviously the correct implementation would be "Show full outlines for the parts that aren't occluded".
Not sure if that is possible in this engine - but i definitely played games doing that.

And if that whole outline thing proves to be too hard to fix - the alternative of just painting some moving semi-transparent texture over the whole highlighted object is the solution i have seen in most games and it always worked pretty good when done subtle (the opposite of what we are voting for here).

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The results of the vote are very interesting. I tried all 3 presets and to be honest

I couldn't tell any difference. They all looked the same. Latest version and years of experience in the game.

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I have an eclectic YouTube channel making videos on a variety of games. Come and have look here:

https://www.youtube.com/c/NeonsStyleHD

 

Dark Mod Missions: Briarwood Manor - available here or in game

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/18980-fan-mission-briarwood-manor-by-neonsstyle-first-mission-6082017-update-16/

 

 

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