The Parts and Whole: Discussion

[Geep]

On the wiki, I'm working on a set of pages with the title-preface and broad theme "The Parts and Whole". This looks at the hows and whys of map objects being formed into collections.

The hub of this is The Parts and Whole: Overview

Within the hub, so far, the section "Techniques that Affect DR Only" is built out with comparison tables and child pages. This covers these techniques: Hide/Show, Region, Layer, Filter, Group, Selection Set.

I'd appreciate any eyeballs on the work so far. Please suggest or edit-in improvements. In particular, are there links to videos or other wiki or forum pages that you think most apt and should be added, e.g., to the "See Also" section?

"The Parts and Whole" effort is mostly intended for newbies and so is not afraid to state the obvious at times. In some cases, it covers ground also handled by the necessarily-concise DarkRadiant User Guide, but with more depth and context. In other cases, the info was only found buried in forums.

Because I'm trying to cover a fair amount of ground, the pages are text-only. Some of the child pages could benefit from screenshots some day.

[thebigh]

This is looking good so far. I've always thought the wiki needs more attention.

[Geep]

@greebo, I'm starting a rewrite of the outdated wiki Prefabs article. A few questions so far:

1) Other than file extension, is there any difference in the format, allowed-content, or use case between:

File/Export selected as Map... (with the .map format selected)

File/Export selected as Prefab... (with the .pfb format selected)

2) Other than file extension, is there any difference between:

File/Export selected as Map... (with the .mapx format selected)

File/Export selected as Prefab... (with the .pfbx format selected)

3) I understand that .pfbx retains DR Group info (that would otherwise be in *.darkradiant in a regular FM). Any other difference worth noting from .pfb?

4) Related to (1), "Export Region..." performs automatic map sealing and insertion of a player start. I assume that "Export selected as a Map" does not do that. True?

Thanks for any help

[greebo]

48 minutes ago, Geep said:

1) Other than file extension, is there any difference in the format, allowed-content, or use case between:

File/Export selected as Map... (with the .map format selected)

File/Export selected as Prefab... (with the .pfb format selected)

As far as the file syntax is concerned, there's no difference between a Doom 3 .map and a Doom 3 .pfb. When DR is saving a .pfb file, no corresponding .darkradiant file is going to be created, i.e. all map meta data like layer and group info is lost.

48 minutes ago, Geep said:

2) Other than file extension, is there any difference between:

File/Export selected as Map... (with the .mapx format selected)

File/Export selected as Prefab... (with the .pfbx format selected)

There's no difference in the XML structure of the mapx or pfbx file contents. No .darkradiant file will be created for neither of them since it's not necessary. Layer and group information is saved in the mapx/pfbx file itself.

48 minutes ago, Geep said:

3) I understand that .pfbx retains DR Group info (that would otherwise be in *.darkradiant in a regular FM). Any other difference worth noting from .pfb?

A .pfb file is using the decl-style syntax of Doom 3 maps, while .pfbx is an XML file. The XML file is taking up more space on disk than the decl-based one, if anybody likes to care about that.

48 minutes ago, Geep said:

4) Related to (1), "Export Region..." performs automatic map sealing and insertion of a player start. I assume that "Export selected as a Map" does not do that. True?

Yes, these two commands are different, as expected: Export selected as Map will create a regular map file without adding any additional stuff like those sealing brushes, or moving player start around, it's just for saving the selected part of the map - it's really just what the name says. The region feature has the goal of making a part (the regioned one) pass beyond the dmap flood fill phase, hence the wall brushes.

[Geep]

This is off-topic regarding prefabs, but is there an expectation that future FMs use mapx instead of map? What's the earliest version of TDM that will solidly support mapx?

[Geep]

@greebo, if I have a prefab stored as .pfbx, and that has DR Group info stored in it, what should I expect to happen...

a) when "Create Group out of Prefab parts" is checked on import

b) when unchecked?

[Dragofer]

1 hour ago, Geep said:

This is off-topic regarding prefabs, but is there an expectation that future FMs use mapx instead of map? What's the earliest version of TDM that will solidly support mapx?

Mapx is colloquially known as "portable map format". I think DR-wise nothing speaks against them becoming the default format, but Im not sure whether TDM supports them (fully).

[greebo]

4 hours ago, Geep said:

@greebo, if I have a prefab stored as .pfbx, and that has DR Group info stored in it, what should I expect to happen...

a) when "Create Group out of Prefab parts" is checked on import

b) when unchecked?

That checkbox is unrelated to the format the prefabs are stored in. It just groups the imported piece together as a whole, whether there are sub-groups or not.

4 hours ago, Dragofer said:

Mapx is colloquially known as "portable map format". I think DR-wise nothing speaks against them becoming the default format, but Im not sure whether TDM supports them (fully).

No support in TDM, at least not yet.

The portable format has been introduced for two reasons: first to make it easier for other technologies to read the map format, since XML parsers are widely available. Second, to fix the problem with clipboard data losing the group info when copy/pasting stuff in and between DarkRadiant itself - when copying data to the clipboard the mapx format is used (you can easily see that when copying map parts and pasting them into a text editor like Notepad).

[Geep]

8 minutes ago, greebo said:

That checkbox is unrelated to the format the prefabs are stored in. It just groups the imported piece together as a whole, whether there are sub-groups or not.

OK. So let me ask about an edge case. Suppose the items in the .pfbx were already all in a group when exported.

Then on import, if "Create Group out of Prefab parts" is checked, then is it smart enough to known it doesn't have to group all, or do you end up with two group-alls, outer and inner?

This will affect what guidance to give to the pfbx creator regarding grouping.

[greebo]

1 hour ago, Geep said:

OK. So let me ask about an edge case. Suppose the items in the .pfbx were already all in a group when exported.

That case is handled, it doesn't create an encompassing group if this outer group already exists.

[Geep]

The Prefabs section of the Overview is now posted, along with 2 child articles on their import and export. Anyone who has worked with prefabs a lot is encouraged to review these. I have may have "gotten out beyond my skis" in some cases.