Fan Mission : Hazard Pay by Kingsal 01/27/22

[Obsttorte]

5 hours ago, snatcher said:

You are probably right and I misunderstood what TDM was trying to achieve. I will reflect.

Well, there is the core mod that basically is a compromise that the team members could agree on so to speak, and there is what fm authors make out of it. Just because you use TDM as fundament doesn't mean you can't experiment a bit or go a different route.

Hence questioning features an common design philosophies is important. It can be a great source of inspiration considering what could be different (not necessarely should). And even if an idea brought up may not seem fitting for TDM as a whole, it can work well under specific circumstances provided in a fm.

[kingsal]

On 6/27/2022 at 1:15 PM, snatcher said:

I can very well be wrong but I think Kingsal expected players to play his mission in a particular way. Just like any other author that spends a good deal of time building a map, creating new objects and textures, thinking of a story, programming new mechanics, publishing... In TDM at least, I find it hard to believe that author's desire is for players to first kill each and every entity there is and only then explore a soulless arena.

Haha, I would say that's definitely not the intended experience, but its a valid one no doubt.

I for sure fumble my way through building these missions, so its not always crystal clear what my *exact* intentions are despite all the effort. Maybe ill do a kind of post mortem write up on this mission. The deadline forced me to streamline my process a bit and have slightly more concrete goals up front.

With regards to how I intend a mission to play out- I definitely have some idea of a loose fantasy I'm trying to sell (in this case some mix of Indiana Jones, Resident Evil and DnD dungeon crawling). However, I try not to be overly controlling in how players experience that fantasy. Its a weird dance; it feels like being a hopeful shepherd sometimes; "Please find this key, please use a rope arrow here, please sneak around this guard " There are definitely tools in the author's  toolbox for wrangling a player, but in the spirit of Thief, I think a lot of TDM missions try to obscure the author's hand.  They strive to showcase the player's actions, creativity, or skills while funneling the player towards a goal. This is a good reason for why I wouldn't spawn more monsters in this particular mission. I want to keep the player focused and feeling like they're making progress. Not saying spawning monsters is bad by itself. I actually think it would support parts of the fantasy in Hazard, but I suspect it would require reworking huge parts of the mission to make it work. Like changing the main objective to kill all the zombies vs collect all the loot. You know what I mean?

All that being said, I actually love watching people play missions in crazy ways I never expected.  The mission still needs to *work* on some level which is a whole other topic, but I love that a mission can be approached in so many different and even whacky ways.

Once again, thanks for playing and making suggestions. I'm taking away a lot of thoughts and ideas from this.

[snatcher]

Thanks for your comment, @Obsttorte . I find all your posts constructive and thoughtful.

Compromises vs determination. What a subject! Determination can reinforce the gameplay for your target audience and well intended compromises can leave a game in a status where neither your target audience nor casual players are fully satisfied. Geez, did I just open a can of worms?

 

@kingsal, thanks for sharing your thoughts with us.

Feedback, observations, or suggestions can be perceived as criticism. And leave the impression that a reviewer didn't like unrelated aspects of a mission, or the whole mission. Far from it in my case, I think your mission could perfectly be found, as is, in any commercial game of the genre. Once again, congratulations.

One more thought or suggestion on the topic, that could be applied to this mission or others to challenge the way (some) players assess and approach a situation. Players make their way through the first stages of the mission killing Zombies if they like, nothing wrong with that. You can even use some tricks and encourage players to do it. But upon entering the main area, the player finds out Zombies are just poor miners gone wrong and, perhaps, there's hope and order can be somehow restored. Conflict is served.

[bobber1]

Just started he mission and really enjoying it.  Very immersive.  Are their any health potions to be had? I kind of singed myself using a fire arrow. 

[kingsal]

3 hours ago, bobber1 said:

Just started he mission and really enjoying it.  Very immersive.  Are their any health potions to be had? I kind of singed myself using a fire arrow. 

Hey awesome!
 

Spoiler

Ha, you should come across one or two health potions depending on the difficulty. You can also find fruit that will give you a small amount of health, hit the use inventory item key to eat them. 

 

[mossyrock]

Walking in here like... Anyway I wanted to say congrats on making the one zombie mission that kept me engaged from beginning to end. Though I might be a little biased since the setting combined with the big square blocks scattered everywhere gave me a bit of OG Tomb Raider vibes. But beautifully mapped out and paced with some really great lighting. If I could only find that last secret.

[chakkman]

11 hours ago, mossyrock said:

Walking in here like... Anyway I wanted to say congrats on making the one zombie mission that kept me engaged from beginning to end. Though I might be a little biased since the setting combined with the big square blocks scattered everywhere gave me a bit of OG Tomb Raider vibes. 

I haven't played this mission yet (will do that soon!), but, the Volta II Cauldron of Gods mission gave me a big "Down in the Bonehoard" vibe, which, I guess, was the plan.  And, yes, you're right. Some missions of Thief Gold were also pretty Tomb Raider like. Which I really like, as I'm a big fan of the games, except for those horrible reboots.

Edited July 18, 2022 by chakkman

[wesp5]

Hi Kingsal, you probably know that I made an Unofficial Patch for TDM featuring some stuff that didn't make it into the core game. I was recently made aware that your mission is not compatible and fixed that from my side for now, but I took a look and the problem is that you use tdm_user_addons.script instead of tdm_custom_scripts.script which is supposed to be used inside of missions. If you use the user_addon script everything the user might add from his side will break. Can you please fix that in your next update? Just add the statistics script to tdm_custom_scripts and everything will be fine!

Edited July 20, 2022 by wesp5

[kingsal]

3 hours ago, wesp5 said:

Hi Kingsal, you probably know that I made an Unofficial Patch for TDM featuring some stuff that didn't make it into the core game. I was recently made aware that your mission is not compatible and fixed that from my side for now, but I took a look and the problem is that you use tdm_user_addons.script instead of tdm_custom_scripts.script which is supposed to be used inside of missions. If you use the user_addon script everything the user might add from his side will break. Can you please fix that in your next update? Just add the statistics script to tdm_custom_scripts and everything will be fine!

Good to know! The addons is left over from my TDM development space . Ill look into it.

[bobber1]

May I add one more thing?  I loved the way mission ended.  How cool would it be to use that method of transportation throughout the entire mission.  I would have loved to have more areas to explore using that system.  I suppose I may have missed some areas as I only found 1 secret though.  Please make a sequel!

[kingsal]

On 7/26/2022 at 5:34 PM, bobber1 said:

May I add one more thing?  I loved the way mission ended.  How cool would it be to use that method of transportation throughout the entire mission.  I would have loved to have more areas to explore using that system.  I suppose I may have missed some areas as I only found 1 secret though.  Please make a sequel!

Thanks! Yeah I originally planned to make more use of the rail system but I didn't have enough time to develop it. I've been playing around with the idea of a sequel someday, utilizing a full on rail system similar to half-life. 

[grodenglaive]

Thank you, that was a superb mission (played through on hard). I was able to complete the objectives, although there was one locked area I couldn't get into:
 

Spoiler

down in the quarry, the locked shack near 2 security cameras. The Quarry key didn't work and neither did the Dead Man's key.  Approximately where is the key hidden?

 

[kingsal]

On 8/10/2022 at 11:35 AM, grodenglaive said:

Thank you, that was a superb mission (played through on hard). I was able to complete the objectives, although there was one locked area I couldn't get into:

Glad you liked it!

 

Spoiler

The key to that shack should be somewhere nearby. Look around in that area with the security cams 

 

[Daft Mugi]

@kingsal (cc @nbohr1more)

Hi there, just a heads up.

In March, I downloaded hazard_99fbd10719fe4b06.pk4 as version 1.
Now, the website shows hazard_8cd5aad459f465c1.pk4 as version 1 as well.

I imagine that this might cause some confusion later when troubleshooting.

Cheers

[wesp5]

Kingsal, I just redownloaded your mission today and the tdm_user_addons.script instead of tdm_custom_scripts.script issue is still not fixed. Can you please do this in your next update? It does not only break my patch which I have temprarily fixed, but also e.g. Snatcher's mod as far as I know.

Edited August 20, 2022 by wesp5

[kingsal]

24 minutes ago, wesp5 said:

Kingsal, I just redownloaded your mission today and the tdm_user_addons.script instead of tdm_custom_scripts.script issue is still not fixed. Can you please do this in your next update? It does not only break my patch which I have temprarily fixed, but also e.g. Snatcher's mod as far as I know.

I haven't had a chance to update the mission. I will do as soon as I can.

[Jedi_Wannabe]

I finally finished it (BIG break from gaming this year) and wow that was fun. Huge classic Theif vibes. A nice departure away from The City and had me flashing back to the Bonehoard (not sure if it was nostalgia or PTSD) but hot damn, I can't wait to replay it.

Spoiler

Got 1254/2334 Loot, 0/5 Secrets, played on Hard with a Stealth Score of 5, time is always misleading but I estimate around 3ish hrs my first play through. My favorite part was the overall atmosphere and architecture, reminded me of an underground Tenochtitlan. 

Thanks for making this.

[MirceaKitsune]

Very nice FM, definitely one of the great ones! Nice way to get accustomed to the new volumetric lights, albeit the FPS was extremely low on this one whether for that reason or another. It was a nice change of scenery as we don't have maps in such a setting often. Also many nice unique assets... if license compatible I definitely see some making it into official, like the lights carts and shiny zombies. I only found a few issues, like if you climb in the wrong place and look up you can see some detached patches not quite touching the ceiling.

Spoiler

I like that you have a choice when ending the FM. You can either make the deal with Gordiff, or if you found the dead man's key open his door which means you need to kill him. I chose to spare him, didn't check if it gives you a different ending but still a nice touch.

[Daft Mugi]

@kingsal I found that using dev16650-10157 the crumpled note at 2571.93 -315.25 -2179.64   42.8 55.0 0.0 has no texture whereas 2.10 has it.

 

[datiswous]

13 hours ago, Daft Mugi said:

2571.93 -315.25 -2179.64   42.8 55.0 0.0

Btw. How can one move to that location? I never figured that out.

[Daft Mugi]

6 hours ago, datiswous said:

Btw. How can one move to that location? I never figured that out.

In the console:

To get the current view position:

getviewpos

The output of getviewpos will be something like: 2571.93 -315.25 -2179.64   42.8 55.0 0.0

 

To move to that view position:

setviewpos 2571.93 -315.25 -2179.64   42.8 55.0 0.0

coordinates: 2571.93 -315.25 -2179.64
view angle: 42.8 55.0 0.0

 

It's ok to just use the coordinates (without the view angle)

setviewpos 2571.93 -315.25 -2179.64

 

Edited November 21, 2022 by Daft Mugi

[kingsal]

Hmm not sure whats up with that. Will have a look, thanks!
 

On 11/20/2022 at 1:03 PM, Daft Mugi said:

@kingsal I found that using dev16650-10157 the crumpled note at 2571.93 -315.25 -2179.64   42.8 55.0 0.0 has no texture whereas 2.10 has it.

 

 

[datiswous]

On 11/23/2022 at 6:44 PM, kingsal said:

Hmm not sure whats up with that. Will have a look, thanks!

 

[snatcher]

@kingsal, may I suggest the removal of tdm_frobactions.script from the pk4? It doesn't serve any purpose as far as I can tell.

EDIT - Also this:

On 8/20/2022 at 7:13 PM, wesp5 said:

Kingsal, I just redownloaded your mission today and the tdm_user_addons.script instead of tdm_custom_scripts.script issue is still not fixed. Can you please do this in your next update? It does not only break my patch which I have temprarily fixed, but also e.g. Snatcher's mod as far as I know.

Edited February 11, 2023 by snatcher

[chakkman]

I'm just finishing this (I think). Fantastic mission, loving every minute of it. I have some issues finding stuff though:

Spoiler

In the mines/tomb, there is a locked room by two security cams, with a barred window (looks like there is a leve inside, maybe to deactivate the security cameras...). Apart from not getting near that door without getting spotted by the cameras, I also seem to miss the key to that door. I found so far: Quarry key, dead man's key. Speaking of the dead man's key, I also wonder what that one is for, as I haven't really found anything it opens yet.

I think I've been everywhere before heading back to the foreman to bring him the gold.

Some (sensitive) pointers would be much appreciated.

Edit: Nevermind, found the key to the security booth, and also found out that you can actually destroy the cameras lol...

Just wondering what the dead man's key does now.

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by chakkman