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Can every1 pls update his FM with a saveroom possibility on hardmode like in the Kingsals latest FM?


Hooded Lantern

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Personally I'm not a fan of mappers integrating autosaving/save rooms etc. in their missions, because a non-manual save system disables Emergent gameplay in some situations. You're not trying out all possible options when you can not save at every possible moment.

If mappers are going to map their missions around such features, this will change gameplay.

Edited by datiswous
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I just want to say editing the mission and/or using scripts are a do so at your own risk thing.
Its very easy to make a change that will have unforeseen consequences unless you know what your doing.

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1 minute ago, kingsal said:

I just want to say editing the mission and/or using scripts are a do so at your own risk thing.
Its very easy to make a change that will have unforeseen consequences unless you know what your doing.

It's also easy to make changes that have unforeseen consequences if you do know what you're doing.

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I would only ever make these changes for maps on my own computer, never with the intent to distribute them ever.

I do this all the time with older maps, like Flakebridge Monastery, where a lot of the torches were set to noshadows for performance reasons. They look really really bad, so whenever I download that mission, I open up the .map file in notepad++ and replace the "noshadows" "1" with "noshadows" "0".

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8 hours ago, datiswous said:

Personally I'm not a fan of mappers integrating autosaving/save rooms etc. in their missions, because a non-manual save system disables Emergent gameplay in some situations. You're not trying out all possible options when you can not save at every possible moment.

If mappers are going to map their missions around such features, this will change gameplay.

Actually, quite the contrary. With manual saves, you quick save/load your way through the map without ever facing the consequences of your actions, if the route or plan you choose goes wrong, or in the way you didn't expect. With limited or no saves you have to go with the flow and think on your feet – and that's when you really see the emergent systems at work, to full extent. With infinite saves players typically choose the safest option and they're done with the mission, instead of choosing a different approach in another playthrough.

And then they can boast of the forums that they finished the mission in 30 minutes on expert and it was a little too easy for their taste :D

Edit: and while I like to use cheats in FMs, e.g. to give myself a sightseeing tour and admire the views/ambience, I'd never edit anyone's map. IMO it's a sign of disrespect. They did what they could at the time, with the knowledge and resources that was available to them. It's a finished work unless they'll have another go at it, it's not up to me to mess with anything they created.

Edited by peter_spy
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I like this kind of system occasionally. I think the beauty of the FM system is some system-level things can be different across FMs, so you get a different experience, and I think as with most things, the best judge is the mapper for their own map (granting that it needs to be beta-tested to make sure it works as intended).

I don't like design by committee, I mean after the basics are settled. I like design by an author with a specific vision, where all the parts fit their vision. Better it having some things I don't like but part of a strong unified vision than a lot of things I like but thrown together wishy-washy.

So all that said, generally I like open saving and just personally committing to dealing with the consequences of my actions and only having the save game there for if I die, or there's such insane guard frenzy after 5 minutes it breaks the game.

But save restrictions do make a different experience that I can appreciate when it happens. I'm on board that it should be only one difficulty level that isn't different from "Normal' though.

I think it'd be interesting for there to be a general save restriction option anybody can turn on for any FM. But we already have the stat screen record how many times you've reloaded, so if you do Ironman it, it is registered. I always thought that was sufficient for people wanting to scratch that itch before some complicated system that literally shuts off your save button.

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3 hours ago, peter_spy said:

Actually, quite the contrary. With manual saves, you quick save/load your way through the map without ever facing the consequences of your actions, if the route or plan you choose goes wrong, or in the way you didn't expect. With limited or no saves you have to go with the flow and think on your feet – and that's when you really see the emergent systems at work, to full extent. With infinite saves players typically choose the safest option and they're done with the mission, instead of choosing a different approach in another playthrough.

This only works if you do multiple playthroughs. If I do multiple playthroughs where I save often, I still find new things every time usually (except for really small missions). In the meantime I fully enjoy all the possibilities I can try out at a time.

 

Edited by datiswous
Actually, I don't really want to do a discussion about the meaning of emergent gaming
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1 hour ago, datiswous said:

This only works if you do multiple playthroughs.

And that's what mission authors want, more longevity to their missions. If you reload a save every time you make mistake, your story is basically: "I moved carefully through the shadows and completed all objectives". And you can still have that on "standard" difficulties. But you're not really seeing the full potential of emergent systems working, if you reload the game every time you don't like the outcome.

These experimental difficulties, or rather new game modes, try to do something different, get more interesting emergent stories for (and from) the players, even if it means moving them out of a comfort zone a little.

The first step to understand this would be to trust that mission authors are trying to show you something new and possibly awesome, and just try it :)

Edited by peter_spy
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Dictating how players should play the game is not the way. The best games (and the best missions) that I've played let the player choose how to approach the game, not put unnecessary restrictions on him. Everyone who doesn't want to save is free to do so. Everyone who wants to save should be as well.

Everyone who wants to KO guards should be allowed to do so as well, unless the mission objectives believably disallow it.

Edited by chakkman
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2 hours ago, peter_spy said:

And that's what mission authors want, more longevity to their missions. If you reload a save every time you make mistake, your story is basically: "I moved carefully through the shadows and completed all objectives". And you can still have that on "standard" difficulties. But you're not really seeing the full potential of emergent systems working, if you reload the game every time you don't like the outcome.

These experimental difficulties, or rather new game modes, try to do something different, get more interesting emergent stories for (and from) the players, even if it means moving them out of a comfort zone a little.

The first step to understand this would be to trust that mission authors are trying to show you something new and possibly awesome, and just try it :)

You're patently incorrect here. The only thing limited saves fosters IS: "I moved carefully through the shadows and completed all objectives". Cause that's exactly what happened in this mission. After the 3rd loss of significant progress and time, I reverted to the old "I moved carefully through the shadows and completed all objectives".

When the penalty for trying something new/risky and failing is to lose all your progress (which could be over an hours worth), then that just has a chilling effect on player adventurism.

I never would have learned the fine ins and outs of the mantling system if I couldn't save first before trying a crazy ass jump.

I never would have learned to be able to take on 9 guards at once with the sword and win if I couldn't save first before YOLO'ing something.

I never would have learned how to drop a crate and knock out guards if I couldn't have saved before trying and reloading over and over again until I figured out the mechanics.

I would be a way worse player, completely ignorant of several systems because limited saves causes risk aversion.

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@AluminumHastewell, you did learn all that in missions without save restrictions and can now apply that, in a pinch, to help you get through survival FMs like highest-difficulty Hazard Pay.

I think the main problem here is that you risk up to an hour of progress. If it were more like 10 minutes I think the outlook would be somewhat different. For a veteran player that loss shouldn't happen too often, while still having to be mindful of the possible consequences of your choices.

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Great, what about the other players who have NOT gotten to my level of proficiency? It's the same mentality about balancing a game for veterans while destroying new players who give up because the mountain is too high to climb.

And despite being very proficient at this game, I STILL lost about 1.5 hours of progress from dying.
 

However, if maybe if the player was allowed to go back to the save room and use it again that would be ok. If I want to waste a bunch of minutes going back and forth to the save point and then back to where I was, that would be on me I guess.

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

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  • nbohr1more changed the title to Can every1 pls update his FM with a saveroom possibility on hardmode like in the Kingsals latest FM?

@AluminumHaste again, first off, it's/can be an optional game mode or difficulty level, not something you have to do. And you're wrong about getting your skills too. The only difference between the way you got them, and the way you can get them in a game without saves is time. Nothing else. How do you think people master games like Dark Souls?

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1 hour ago, peter_spy said:

@AluminumHaste again, first off, it's/can be an optional game mode or difficulty level, not something you have to do. And you're wrong about getting your skills too. The only difference between the way you got them, and the way you can get them in a game without saves is time. Nothing else. How do you think people master games like Dark Souls?

The elephant in the room is player types. Some get their fun from overcomming frustration - others don't play games that frustrate them. I am a less-frustration-is-better player. You seem to like frustration - a lot...

That is fine and in TDM we both can have fun playing missions having save restrictions on any level now.
I fixed the player type difference with a mod which basically just reduces the time wasted per player mistake (if the player doesn't forget to do the proper savescumming).

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On 1/16/2022 at 12:17 AM, AluminumHaste said:

lol wut? No I mantled on the torch.

 

On 2/1/2022 at 2:11 PM, thebigh said:

If you do not want the player to be able to save the game wherever and wherever they like, you can restrict them to only be able to save in certain locations. These are save rooms.

 

I'm not a fan personally, but opinions differ. I guess they work well in tense survival horror missions.

Jeez. I don't like that. I like the freedom, and think people should be free to do what they like. Sounds bit like a control freak
sort of thing. If someone doesn't want to save, they don't have to. Discipine! :)

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Afraid not! No! That is a huge task for one map and you want it on all? LOL

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The gameplay appeal of restricted saves is the same type of appeal of permadeath in rogue-likes. The stakes are ramped up much higher between save rooms, and you just feel the flow of a game differently when the stakes are high.... There's a much bigger adrenaline rush taking on a challenge, and a much bigger wave of relief when you pass a part. And if you want to think about it from the other direction, compared to permadeath, save rooms are pretty forgiving. You don't have to start completely over.

Where it looks like there is general agreement is that there's definite player types. Some players get off on high stakes & big adrenaline rushes, and restricted saves gives them that. Other people get off on the pure flow of making steady and sure progress, and restricted saves are like a punch to the gut because it takes away the one thing of value they get out of a game, the progress they've already achieved and now are asked to do again. And I think a lot of people can be in one or another state depending on their mood.

It's really easy to see how different types like that are going to have polar opposite feelings about this mechanic. It's not really rocket science, and it's kind of funny to even "argue" about it, when it's a pretty transparent matter of taste.

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Again, there's 0 roguelike/lite features here. When I lose progress I don't keep my items that I found during the "run". There door that I unlocked isn't still unlocked etc.

I really like those games myself, I have 100s of hours in Noita, Dead Cells, I've beaten all the Dark Souls games many times etc.

My disagreement was the assertation that this mechanic somehow causes players to be MORE adventurous, or take MORE risks, when in fact it's the opposite.

You're trying to tell me there's people out there who play these games and YOLO every situation because the stakes to failure are so high? That they look at a chasm they're not certain they can make and think "if I miss this I'm going back 30 minutes, fuck yeah!!!! YOLO!!! LEEEEERRROOOOYYYYYYYYYY JEEEENNNKKIIIINNNNSSSSSSS!!!!!"

Is this a thing?

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All the talk so far was about risk-reward situations where people have to deal with the consequences of their choices, plans or mistakes. You're kinda trying to dumb down this idea by focusing on possible design mistakes, like chasms being deceptive so players might try to jump over them and fail.

The talk is still about this being an optional mode and implementing that in future missions, even though the thread started on retroactively fitting save rooms in existing missions, (which is not possible without major map design changes IMO).

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People keep bringing up roguelike mechanics, like that's going to be part of this feature, or that it matters in this context (so far no.).

I'm pointing out ACTUAL things that happened during my playthrough with said feature. Trying to do things that are risky, where I might fail to make jump and fall to my death, means that I'm just NOT going to risk those things, thus forcing me into playing in a much safer manner and not take risks.

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I agree with @demagogueit is a matter  of taste. 
 

It should be optional either through difficulty levels, maybe we should expand that system, or maybe down the road we add some feature that allows authors to set up settings for players to choose. 
 

The conversation is good here, but no author is taking away anyones “freedom” - that’s ridiculous and silly…

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17 hours ago, kingsal said:

The conversation is good here, but no author is taking away anyones “freedom” - that’s ridiculous and silly…

Not sure if I agree with you there. Of course, making mandatory objectives on any difficulty level is taking away the freedom of playing like you do. If you, for example, make mandatory save points at expert difficulty, meaning that players will only be able to save in save rooms, you disallow saving at any point. For the sake of a way to play your mission which you have in mind for the player. Of course, that's entirely your decision, as it is your mission, and you design the way you want it to be. It's just that I personally dislike missions where there are mandatory objectives which hinder the way I want to play the mission. And, it's totally unnecessary as well, as, even without save rooms, everyone can choose how he/she wants to play the mission. There's zero reason for me to design your mission in a way that players are forced to another way or playing. And, yes, that also includes mission objectives on expert for me. No knockout objectives on expert already annoy the hell out of me, to be honest. Why, just why? Maybe there are players which want to go for the most amount of loot, but still want to knock people out?

What's the point anyway? The original Thief's didn't have a save only at save rooms requirement, and, I also don't see a reasonable reason why saving would be only allowed in a certain room.

Just my opinion about it. What you do with it is entirely your thing. I just want to state that, of course, such things will force players to play differently. Just because you feel like they should.

Well, the worst thing which could happen is that people like me don't play your missions really. ;)

Edited by chakkman
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18 hours ago, kingsal said:

I agree with @demagogueit is a matter  of taste. 
 

It should be optional either through difficulty levels, maybe we should expand that system, or maybe down the road we add some feature that allows authors to set up settings for players to choose. 
 

The conversation is good here, but no author is taking away anyones “freedom” - that’s ridiculous and silly…

I must say that the lack of open mind and imagination here is rather disappointing, not to mention the 'muh freedom' reaction. Meanwhile "This is how we've always been doing things here" stance is the most commonly known factor for stagnation or killing any innovation.

And the continued ignorance of the fact that this is/wil be an optional mode or difficulty seems more like a "live and let live" problem. The fact that there might be a difficulty mode you won't master, perhaps even called 'Expert', does that hurt anybody's ego or something? :D

Edited by peter_spy
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1 hour ago, peter_spy said:

I must say that the lack of open mind and imagination here is rather disappointing, not to mention the 'muh freedom' reaction. Meanwhile "This is how we've always been doing things here" stance is the most commonly known factor for stagnation or killing any innovation.

And the continued ignorance of the fact that this is/wil be an optional mode or difficulty seems more like a "live and let live" problem. The fact that there might be a difficulty mode you won't master, perhaps even called 'Expert', does that hurt anybody's ego or something? :D

You're very aggressive aren't you ?

Someone doesn't like what you like, so out you come with demeaning & the belittling statements "lack of open mind and imagination here is rather disappointing", "The fact that there might be a difficulty mode you won't master, perhaps even called 'Expert', does that hurt anybody's ego or something? :D"

Do you seriously think that's going to change anyone's mind or give your opinion any more weight ?

I get the impression you think playing these games is all about bragging rights & anyone who doesn't just plain wrong & should be made fun of

Well last time I checked there wasn't a league table & if there ever is I won't be taking part in it or care who's at the top or the bottom, I don't care how fast you beat expert, or your stealth score, or if you iron manned, or supreme ghosted, that's all you & I don't care

All I'm interested in is one question "Am I having fun playing this ?"

As for killing innovation, how about innovating something that adds to player enjoyment rather than adding to their frustration, give them something rather than taking it away

Is it that innovation is hard & taking things away is easy?

Or do you really think forcing a player to grind their way across the map covering the same territory & the same AI repeatedly is going to add to their enjoyment ?

And before you turn this around & tell me I'm being belittling & demeaning remember you're attacking a non gameplay mechanism that's been part of the system without complaint since it's inception, which if you include the dark project is over 20 years & you got bent out of shape because I dared to say I wanted to know which missions would use this so I didn't waste my time playing something I wouldn't enjoy

As I have said repeatedly, you create whatever game you like, I don't mind, but if you mess with basic controls like when I can save my progress I would like to know so I can go play something else & if it upsets you that your magnum opus, that you spent the last year making, isn't going to get played by me because of that, then I suggest that that's a you problem

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1 hour ago, esme said:

I wanted to know which missions would use this so I didn't waste my time playing something I wouldn't enjoy

This part has me thinking there's a misunderstanding. FMs that offer "save room" modes will also offer regular modes with unrestricted saving that you can choose instead. Is your argument that you only want to play a mission on Expert difficulty, which is probably going to be the difficulty that would have the restricted saves? The technical implementation of new gameplay modes can probably be improved so that it doesn't need to use up a difficulty slot.

As for mapper time investment - some players enjoy this mode, and some more players would enjoy this mode but might just never try it without a mission that's designed for it. I think it's good to cater to a variety of playstyles in the mission catalogue. Thief FMs intentionally change up gameplay all the time.

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