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How much work would it take to run DOOM 3 on TDM?


00face
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After all the research I've done so far and comparisons, including reading the history of the development of TDM. It seems TDM would be the best engine possible for DOOM 3. Any thoughts, or avenues to pursue on this from anyone constructive would be much appreciated.

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I'm not sure I understand the question. TDM is already based on the DOOM 3 engine, so that would be modifying it back to accommodate what it originally used to run.

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Posted (edited)

Well I'm shocked at your confusion. Correct, TDM is based on DOOM 3. 

Quote

So that would be modifying it back to accommodate what it originally used to run.

Yep. So with the history of the development of TDM and all it's advancements to the DOOM 3 engine. It seems TDM would be the best engine possible for DOOM 3. Such as when TDM 2.06 *and later introduced the GLSL backend and optimizing Doom 3 code with modern SIMD approaches.

I'm also confused, because I said any thoughts, or avenues to pursue on this from anyone constructive would be much appreciated.

Edited by 00face
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We did remove or modify some of the native Doom 3 game features.

Most notably we followed Dhewm3 in removing the whole DLL loader system.

Probably the best way to have Doom 3 with Darkmod features would be to submit patches to Dhewm3 that include TDM rendering improvements.

For now, the closest you can get to running Doom 3 with TDM graphics optimizations and features is the fhDOOM project but I don't believe that project has any of the SIMD improvements we have so it won't be as big of an uplift in performance.

https://github.com/eXistence/fhDOOM

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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6 hours ago, 00face said:

Well I'm shocked at your confusion. 

Well, you gotta admit that the question is a bit strange. A bit like asking how to run Skyrim in Endereal.

If you asked if there is a way to bring the engine improvements of TDM to Doom 3, then it would have been more clear.

Edited by chakkman
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You know, when I think about it...I would love it if The Dark Mod Engine was also available for Doom 3 itself.

You guys have it all I want after all; it has great shadows, as well as allowing you to use soft shadows and the implementation is better than one of the source ports I know.
It has proper volumetric light even.
It uses FBO for the resolutions, which helps since the resolution function in Doom 3 (even BFG edition) is rather bad.
Adaptive VSync, uncapped frames, HDR with Bloom (that, to be honest, is not that impressive but it indeed works), 64-bit and 64-bit color precision, multi-thread support that is apparently the same one that BFG Edition uses but I swear it's better.

Sure, you are missing some like one BFGDoom port has, that is material "PBR" and the like, but the rest is no joke, it's quite the achievements. It's an overachievement honestly.

I don't think that will come any time soon, but the idea itself is great!

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4 hours ago, datiswous said:

I would love to play a Doom stealth game where you have to hide and sneak around scary monsters and solf puzzles harder than find the blue key .

I think I'd also like that much better than to get monsters thrown in my back the whole time, and lots of shock moments which scare the hell out of me. :D

I like Doom 3, but, I quit it at some point, because it was just too much of a shocker for me. I'm rather the guy for sublte horror, like the Amnesia games or Penumbra.

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Posted (edited)
Quote

 

Well, you gotta admit that the question is a bit strange. A bit like asking how to run Skyrim in Endereal.

If you asked if there is a way to bring the engine improvements of TDM to Doom 3, then it would have been more clear.

 

No I think my question was quite clear and not strange considering:

  1. A developer on the team answered with no confusion almost right away.
  2. Other people were not confused.
  3. If you have been following the development of TDM since it was just a mod with a dream for DOOM 3.
  4. Or, know the history of TDM's development including after when D3's source was released.

I find it strange to be confused, unless perhaps you did not read, stop, think, then respond.

Edited by 00face
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1 hour ago, The Black Arrow said:

You know, when I think about it...I would love it if The Dark Mod Engine was also available for Doom 3 itself.

You guys have it all I want after all; it has great shadows, as well as allowing you to use soft shadows and the implementation is better than one of the source ports I know.
It has proper volumetric light even.
It uses FBO for the resolutions, which helps since the resolution function in Doom 3 (even BFG edition) is rather bad.
Adaptive VSync, uncapped frames, HDR with Bloom (that, to be honest, is not that impressive but it indeed works), 64-bit and 64-bit color precision, multi-thread support that is apparently the same one that BFG Edition uses but I swear it's better.

Sure, you are missing some like one BFGDoom port has, that is material "PBR" and the like, but the rest is no joke, it's quite the achievements. It's an overachievement honestly.

I don't think that will come any time soon, but the idea itself is great!

The decreased loading times alone would be worth it for me.

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No need to be defensive, different people have different perspectives.

I have actually pondered this question a few times myself.

I once tried using TDM 2.0 in a Doom 3 directory with no TDM assets and I believe it failed on GUI errors but my memory there is fuzzy.

I guess that rather than trying to tease out our main features for patch requests, one approach might be to just try doing a manual differential merge of the game folder starting just the AI sub-folder. Since the Doom 3 AI entities wont use TDM features, none of our custom baggage should impact Doom 3 game-play. In theory it might be as easy as overwriting the AI files with the code from either Dhewm3 or BFG then compiling. Chances are there might be dependency errors when doing this but the scope of the errors would probably be small enough to fix "fairly quickly" ( famous last words ... ) ?

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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14 hours ago, 00face said:

After all the research I've done so far and comparisons, including reading the history of the development of TDM. It seems TDM would be the best engine possible for DOOM 3. Any thoughts, or avenues to pursue on this from anyone constructive would be much appreciated.

Have you seen this https://github.com/RobertBeckebans/RBDOOM-3-BFG ?

I wish for TDM 3 we would have fully PBR renderer with Vulkan.

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Another thing to be aware of is that the TDM gamecode (as opposed to the renderer) seems to have been built on top of the D3 SDK (before the whole engine went open source) and therefore not on the RoE gamecode. That's why the xray stuff didn't work properly before 2.10. So on top of what's been removed or altered, there are RoE features that never existed in TDM to begin with.

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Or you could try being less cryptic when you ask a question and/or not getting so hostile when people ask what you mean.

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My missions:           Stand-alone                                                      Duncan Lynch series                              

                                      Down and Out on Newford Road              the Factory Heist

                                                                                                  A House Call

                              

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31 minutes ago, VanishedOne said:

Another thing to be aware of is that the TDM gamecode (as opposed to the renderer) seems to have been built on top of the D3 SDK (before the whole engine went open source) and therefore not on the RoE gamecode. That's why the xray stuff didn't work properly before 2.10. So on top of what's been removed or altered, there are RoE features that never existed in TDM to begin with.

The RoE features that would be cool in some eventual action focused TDM mission but afaik were never transferred are, vehicle physics (physics based vehicles the player can ride), imo would be funny to drive around a slow steampunk vehicle and lastly weapons that you can mount, would also be fun imo to have a ballista type of weapon in some TDM mission  :D, to kill me some zombie horde! 

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32 minutes ago, HMart said:

imo would be funny to drive around a slow steampunk vehicle

I can just imagine watchmen derping around after you on penny-farthings.

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{ 0 | 🞵 } = funk_tastic

My missions:           Stand-alone                                                      Duncan Lynch series                              

                                      Down and Out on Newford Road              the Factory Heist

                                                                                                  A House Call

                              

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There's some vehicle-related code still in AFEntity.h/AFEntity.cpp (unlike the idAFEntity_ClawFourFingers class, which was stripped out of TDM), but I don't know whether it's in a working state; presumably it needs a suitably rigged MD5.

I was thinking more of the bullet time feature (though some might consider it Dishonorable).  I think that's what the timegroup stuff is for: https://github.com/TTimo/doom3.gpl/search?q=timegroup&type=

Some things I'm repeatedly thinking about...

 

- louder scream when you're dying

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Either way, why not pay homage in both directions? I had not actually thought about mixing content, but that could be pretty intense. Playing Thief in DOOM 3, and DOOM 3 in Thief, even those have a few ways to go about them.

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On 3/8/2022 at 5:55 PM, 00face said:

Either way, why not pay homage in both directions? I had not actually thought about mixing content, but that could be pretty intense. Playing Thief in DOOM 3, and DOOM 3 in Thief, even those have a few ways to go about them.

I'd like the idea of steampunk versions of the cyborg demons from Doom 3 as enemies in Dark Mod, a sort of pseudo-prequel vibe that Hell's technology grows more advanced as more intelligent evil souls are sent there. So at the time of The Dark Mod, they're limited to the same technology as The Inventors Guild.

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On 3/9/2022 at 12:52 AM, VanishedOne said:

There's some vehicle-related code still in AFEntity.h/AFEntity.cpp (unlike the idAFEntity_ClawFourFingers class, which was stripped out of TDM), but I don't know whether it's in a working state; presumably it needs a suitably rigged MD5.

I was thinking more of the bullet time feature (though some might consider it Dishonorable).  I think that's what the timegroup stuff is for: https://github.com/TTimo/doom3.gpl/search?q=timegroup&type=

Yeah, but what's the point of slow motion in a stealth game? I see it viable only in platforming and combat. But more than that, TDM would need time rewind like in Prince of Persia most of all no?

"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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Wasn't there a game that if you die you hear yourself say: "No, this isn't how I remembered it" (In Cold Blood?). Instead of having the scull death scene you could have a black screen with you saying that line and after that it loads an autosave from 2 minutes ago.
I know it's not the same, but I wanted to share that thought.

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Isn't rewinding time just another way to say perpetual autosave? Or do you mean the world actually animates backwards so you can pick your pick-up point? Anyway, just knowing what save does, the processing burden would have to be too high.

If I were doing it, honestly I'd just hack it with an updating screen record, autosave, and play the recording backwards to the autosave point. Aside from the tech burden, I think it's a bit too gimmicky for my taste. Just my aesthetic opinion.

A couple of us have thought about a scifi/cyberpunk version of TDM. I would love to see that! The issue with porting it back to Doom3 is that it's locked to Doom3, and there isn't too much to Doom3 beyond just the vanilla game. (It doesn't have so many fan maps or a mod scene anymore.)  But if it were a Doom3-like scifi shooter that was friendly to fan maps & released for free, that'd be cool.

That said, I would be happy to see the improvements ported back into the Doom3 engine if somebody had the initiative to do it. Lord knows it could use it, and it'd be a path of least resistance if someone were that motivated to update the game's engine.

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On 3/9/2022 at 9:25 AM, 00face said:

Either way, why not pay homage in both directions? I had not actually thought about mixing content, but that could be pretty intense. Playing Thief in DOOM 3, and DOOM 3 in Thief, even those have a few ways to go about them.

Back when The Dark Mod was literally a mod for Doom 3, I was a bit naive and thought that, given the Doom 3 resources were still accessible to the mod, with the correct application of "give all" and maybe a couple of tweaks I'd be able to spawn in a shotgun and take those Builders and City Guard to town. I mean in theory it should have been possible, but I couldn't work it out and gave up rather quickly. Stealth score would have gone to shit but it would certainly be funny. :)

A word of warning, Agent Denton. This was a simulated experience; real LAMs will not be so forgiving.

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